Exactly, most all scientist, and reasonable research indicate and state the there is no such thing as a pure vacuum. Point2 Yes, but unless we can show everything a lie, they have produced reasonable data based on reasonable methodologies with reasonable proof and reasonable fruits to show for it although not as far reaching as they might believe. If we reject all and state it is , then the burden of proof rest on us not them, and our satments are based on circular logic. Philip <joyphil@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Allen maybe we are arguing the same thing using different constructs or jargon. I do not deny the existence of the aether. I merely say that a cubic metre of true vacuum has nothing physical in it. If there were anything there, it would not be a true vacuum. The aether is real. It does exhibit certain properties upon physical things. When I say it is not physical, I mean it is not physical matter.. (material) I do not consider energy is physical material . Though material does contain energy. Radiation a form of energy does not contain material , (thus you can see that I do not ascribe to the theory of photons) If you are saying that all things that exhibit physical properties are "physical", and therefore must include metaphysical, supernatural and spiritual, properties which can at times create physical effects, then ok you and I have no disagreement. As regards theories of physics , electron theory, atomic theory, or any other theory, I can, as you can, prefer whatever cause for an observable reaction we wish. I would like to go into the "action" of a dielectric as between a vacuum and material dielectrics, as relates to energy storage in a capacitance, but another time... 2nd subject I note your comment to Neville re circular reasoning. It seems the more I read into scientific papers, the more common I find this practise to be. I find no objection to the practise, so long as it is acknowledged that the conclusions are dependent upon the accuracy or truth of the presumptions. Neville has twice now to my knowledge said as much. Many of the modernist cosmologists and evolutionists do not. They demand Divine right without recourse to His word. Philip.