[geocentrism] Re: engrossing
- From: "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx>
- To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 16:01:46 -0500
JA,
Yes, the scriptures demonstrate the basis and authority for Catholicism.
I have not demonstrated the current Pope is a heretic. I think DI can
be read in ways that can be misleading. For example, what does the
first sentence of what you show below really mean. It doesn't say you
can be saved if you die outside the Catholic Church.
Merely because you fail to see Jesus' wisdom and truth in the Catholic
writings doesn't mean it's not there. It just means you don't see it or
understand it. Fortunately, Jesus gave us a reliable authority we can
look to on earth for an answer. God speaks through the Catholic Church.
View the Church as His mouthpiece if that helps you conceptually.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:50 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Nick,
I take it then that the statement in question is not official and
infallible.I appreciate the correction. I wonder how he could be elected
Pope being such a heretic as you have amply demonstrated?
I fail to see Jesus' wisdom and truth in anything you quoted from
catholic writings and seems to be quite plainly at odds with all the
scriptures. Do you claim scripture as the basis and authority for
catholicism?
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
JA,
Thank you for the follow up.
Official Ex Cathedra Catholic Church teaching says the
following:
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes, and
preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not
only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a
share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which
was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are
joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this
ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can
profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone
can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgiving,
their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian
soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even
if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he
remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."& nbsp;
Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of
which no one at all can be saved." Pope Innocent III, 4th Lateran
Council, 1215.
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely
necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the
Roman Pontiff." Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.
"If anyone shall say that baptism is optional, that is, not
necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Canon 5, Council of
Trent.
"If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not
necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus
Christ:'Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit' (John
3:5) are distorted into some sort of metaphor: let him be anathema."
Canon 2, Council of Trent.
"Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water
and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." John 3:5.
I'm familiar with Dominus Iesus issued by then Cardinal
Ratzinger. What I've quoted above is Ex Cathedra "infallible" teachings
("infantile" or "insane" for Neville). Hunt for some loophole or
liberal interpretation of these at your own risk. These reflect Jesus
"wisdom and truth", so your search is over, should you care to admit it.
No apology from me is needed. I've been speaking in the
objective order. As I've said, only God can judge souls. That doesn't
keep us from teaching what He taught us, and indeed as Christians (i.e.
Catholics) we have an obligation to do so.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:03 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Nick, did you miss the first line in the declaration below, not
to mention several paragraphs further below. Or was that not an official
catholic thing? Don't you owe me and several others an appology for
telling us we are going to hell even though we accept Jesus as our
savior and seek his wisdom and truth as best we can? And don't you owe
your faith and your church a trip to the confessional to confess your
multiple sins of judging other men's souls?
JA
"Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Right.
So it's a good thing God told us who He'd make
infallible on matters of faith and morals.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Robert Bennett [mailto:robert.bennett@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 8:35 PM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
I can be only fallible or infallible
I state that I am fallible.
But that means I can be in error, including in my
statement above.
So I could be infallible, when I say I am fallible.
http://www.catholic-defense.com/dominus.htm
DOMINUS IESUS
CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
DECLARATION
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
...Furthermore, the salvific action of Jesus Christ,
with and through his Spirit, extends beyond the visible boundaries of
the Church to all humanity. Speaking of the paschal mystery, in which
Christ even now associates the believer to himself in a living manner in
the Spirit and gives him the hope of resurrection, the Council states:
"All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of
good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ
died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same
destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to
all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in
the paschal mystery".
........Hence, the connection is clear between the
salvific mystery of the Incarnate Word and that of the Spirit, who
actualizes the salvific efficacy of the Son made man in the lives of all
people, called by God to a single goal, both those who historically
preceded the Word made man, and those who live after his coming in
history: the Spirit of the Father, bestowed abundantly by the Son, is
the animator of all (cf. Jn 3:34
...........There is only one salvific economy of the One
and Triune God, realized in the mystery of the incarnation, death, and
resurrection of the Son of God, actualized with the cooperation of the
Holy Spirit, and extended in its salvific value to all humanity and to
the entire universe: "No one, therefore, can enter into communion with
God except through Christ, by the working of the Holy Spirit".41
.....In the New Testament, the universal salvific will
of God is closely connected to the sole mediation of Christ: "[God]
desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and men,
the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim
2:4-6).
........From the beginning, the community of believers
has recognized in Jesus a salvific value such that he alone, as Son of
God made man, crucified and risen, by the mission received from the
Father and in the power of the Holy Spirit, bestows revelation (cf. Mt
11:27) and divine life (cf. Jn 1:12; 5:25-26; 17:2) to all humanity and
to every person.
..... Second Vatican Council teaches: "The Word of God,
through whom all things were made, was made flesh, so that as perfect
man he could save all men and sum up all things in himself.
......these separated Churches and communities as such,
though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been
deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For
the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of
salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace
and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".
....Likewise, one may not separate the kingdom [0f God]
from the Church. It is true that the Church is not an end unto herself,
since she is ordered toward the kingdom of God, of which she is the
seed, sign and instrument
.....Above all else, it must be firmly believed that
"the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one
Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in
his body which is the Church. ......This doctrine must not be set
against the universal salvific will of God (cf. 1 Tim 2:4); "it is
necessary to keep these two truths together, namely, the real
possibility of salvation in Christ for all mankind and the necessity of
the Church for this salvation".
......For those who are not formally and visibly members
of the Church, "salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace
which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not
make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way
which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This
grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is
communicated by the Holy Spirit";81 it has a relationship with the
Church, which "according to the plan of the Father, has her origin in
the mission of the Son and the Holy Spirit".
...... With respect to the way in which the salvific
grace of God - which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit
and has a mysterious relationship to the Church - comes to individual
non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the
statement that God bestows it "in ways known to himself".83 ......
However, from what has been stated above about the mediation of Jesus
Christ and the "unique and special relationship"84 which the Church has
with the ki ngdom of God among men - which in substance is the universal
kingdom of Christ the Saviour - it is clear that it would be contrary to
the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those
constituted by the other religions, seen as complementary to the Church
or substantially equivalent to her, even if these are said to be
converging with the Church toward the eschatological kingdom of God.
........One cannot attribute to these, however, a divine
origin or an ex opere operato salvific efficacy, which is proper to the
Christian sacraments.88 Furthermore, it cannot be overlooked that other
rituals, insofar as they depend on superstitions or other errors (cf. 1
Cor 10:20-21), constitute an obstacle to salvation.89
22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God
has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the
salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith
does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the
religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical
way, that mentality of indifferentism "characterized by a religious
relativism which leads to the belief that 'one religion is as good as
another'".91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can
receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they
are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in
the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92 However,
"all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their
exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace
of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that
grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely
judged".93 One understands then that, following the Lord's command (cf.
Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Churc
h "proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who
is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God
reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the
fullness of their religious life".94
......."Indeed, God 'desires all men to be saved and
come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the
salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is
found in the truth. Those who obey the promptings of the Spirit of truth
are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth
has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring
them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of
salvation, the Church must be missionary".
......
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience of
June 16, 2000, granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect of the
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, with sure knowledge and by
his apostolic authority, ratified and confirmed this Declaration,
adopted in Plenary Session and ordered its publication.
Rome, from the Offices of the Congregation for the
Doctrine of the Faith, August 6, 2000, the Feast of the Transfiguration
of the Lord.
Joseph Card. Ratzinger
Prefect
............
If Jesus is God, and He left us the Catholic Church as
His instrument of salvation on earth, then we cannot of ourselves create
some other means of salvation than the one God gave us. In other words,
we can't say to God: "Thanks for your plan, but I'll do it my own way."
What Vatican II had to say on the subject was that some have a saving
communion with the Church even if they don't have an intellectual
understanding of such. In other words, they are members of the Church,
albeit in an imperfect way, but are not within the visible confines of
the Church.
Vatican II said that if a person is, through no fault of
their own, ignorant of the fact that the Catholic Church is the true
Church, such a person may attain salvation although they are in an
impoverished situation. A person who knows the Catholic Church is true
and refuses to embrace the Catholic faith would be accountable for the
refusal of God's plan of salvation.
In short, God doesn't hold us accountable for what we
are innocently ignorant of. He will hold us accountable if we know and
refuse, or purposely choose to deny, the light given us and remain in
ignorance.
http://www.catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp
.....Indifferentists, going to one extreme, claim that
it makes no difference what church one belongs to. Certain radical
traditionalists, going to the other extreme, claim that unless one is a
full-fledged, baptized member of the Catholic Church, one will be
damned.
Pax Christi semper,
Robert
-----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Niemann, Nicholas
K.
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 11:57 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Robert,
Will you tell us what is the other "way to
salvation", and tell us if this is your opinion or if you are speaking
without the possibility of error, and if so, how you know that you are
infallible on the topic.
Regards,
Nick.
_____
From: Robert Bennett
[mailto:robert.bennett@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 10:25 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] Re: engrossing
Well, we will miss the daily epistles of Phillip
to the geocentrists....
The confusion here is rooted in not
distinguishing the Church Christ founded, which has the fullness of
salvific truth, but not an exclusive right to it.......from the kingdom
of God, as described in NT parables.
The Catholic Church, because it is one, holy,
catholic and apostolic, because it has the seven sacraments to bestow
grace on its members, because Jesus is its head, is the best, but not
only, way to salvation. The Church is a mix of saints and sinners, like
the rest of mankind. Who is saint and who is sinner? ....well, that
changes daily. Here comes everybody!
Why does the Catholic church stir up such
aggressive resistance from the world, when it seeks nothing that the
world offers? Why the obstinate and fanatic crusade by evolutionists
and relativists and abortionists and modernists to impose their secular
science and amorality on all its members?
Why the strident response in this "geocentric?"
forum to those who believe they have found the truth and embrace it?
Because we all have an intellect that always
seeks the Truth and a will that seeks the Good, with a conscience that
attempts to resolve the two when conflicted.
Herein is the conflict: We seek our own
lifestyle - a life of comfort here on earth. But life is not a reward -
it's a test, a test of fidelity and humility, of childlike innocence and
obedience to righteous divine authority.
Unless you become like little children, you
CANNOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
When our ever-active conscience detects a threat
to our lifestyle, we react instinctively to eliminate the challenge. As
long as the Church teaches the message above, it will be seen as a
threat by our conscience, so the Church must be suppressed or eliminated
from our vision.
Let the responses show where the truth lies.
Pax Christi,
Robert
.
-----Original Message-----
From: geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:geocentrism-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Philip
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 1:34 AM
To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [geocentrism] engrossing
I cant get out of it..... Its too
engrossing ..Nick Allen Ja Neville...
However in these coming three days I'm
out of my house and a vagabond . with less access to you all.
I have my life of science in a book
called Diary of a Mad professor..
I have decided to release to the world
so that none can patent it one of what is to my mind a very practical
idea which makes fun of modern slipstreaming, and abolishes the need for
it, and will bring the electric car back into focus .
Tomorrow.
Phil
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