Good point. If I remember correctly, at one point, each title had a little cd with flames next to it to indicate that burning to cd was possible for the title. By the time audible.com redesigned all its webpages, I was no longer using the screen, but JAWS, so I don't know if they still indicate this for each individual title. On the other hand, when I was still driving and even now for road trips, I burn titles to CD to share over the car audio system since it's more interactive on a long trip, and we enjoy sharing some titles. I must have 40 to 50 books burned to cd, all in their little paper covers, filed and stored [grin]. Yes, I'm such a geek. [laughing], but the cd's are about the only organized thing in the house, so I'm content. So far, though, I've never run into a title that I could not burn to CD. I've not made use of Audible Manager for quite some time, however. Do you still have to download the cd burning software as a separate add-on? Anyway, personally, I've always been extremely pleased with audible overall. And I have to agree with what others have said. If someone is really intent on breaking copyright, they'll find a way. It seems to me a matter of weighing the potential for making money from selling audiobooks in a reasonably protected format that is still somewhat flexible like the Audible books vs. having copyright protection as a primary concern, above and beyond all others. How much control do authors and publishers have over whether or not their titles are included in the NLS system? If they don't have "opt out" options, and since the service is not about making money selling the books with money going to the authors for their creative work, but about distributing the books for free in good faith, then I can understand why this issue is far more of a determining factor for the NLS books. Personally, I'll just stick with the cassettes until the library players come out or until I win the lotto. When a regular public library buys audiobooks on CD to distribute (or print books, for that matter) , they pay an additional fee for the book based on their potential readership to help compensate for the income not being made by forcing everyone to purchase copies. It doesn't cover the difference by any means, of course, and there's no real allotment for the chance that someone will photocopy the pages illegally or rip the CD's while the books are checked out. But having the books on audio CD for the local library to purchase and lend is part of the advantage of having them on audio cd for sale at all, and the author or publisher gets to choose those risks and the potential for income against those risks. There's no (or very little) potential benefit for the authors and publishers to having their titles in the NLS audio library system. So, yeah, those who didn't choose to take the risk of having their materials on audio cd would be justified in their concern for copyright protection in the new NLS formats, particularly since those titles could be distributed widely with the click of a mouse once they were opened on a single personal computer. As for who would screw around making 10 to 20 CD's or more for a book and then rip them back into the computer in MP3 format? Well, few would do it for a single copy to be played on a more convenient player. But money has always made boredom more acceptable to many. Someone interested in serious piracy could do it and make cash, or 20 people who wanted to pay a dollar each for a single Audible membership and then distribute copies amongst themselves might find it less tedious than I would. All you can do is hope such people don't screw it up for the rest of us! But it's hardly such a far fetched idea as your comments seem to imply. As an example, consider a book like The Historian or one of the other titles I have that are 48 or 50 cd's long and cost about $80 a pop in the bookstore? The Historian was originally two audio audible credits or about 24 bucks through audible, and now it's only one credit or about 12 bucks. Amazon.com has used unabridged copies listed at $119.00; I don't recall seeing this available unabridged on CD in the bookstores, though. Hard to come by. Audible's "regular" price for the unabridged version is listed as $68 with the member cash price set at about $48.00 bucks for a 26-27 hour long title. The cheapest way to purchase the title, is, of course, through the subscription service at 12 bucks for one credit. With a fast processor, your talking about several hours of work to break the copyright through the cd to mp3 long route. Then, even if a schmuck only charged $40 or 50 bucks for the book, the schmuck would make a significant amount of money per pirated copy for all those who want "just this one title" without paying the premium market worth of the title or undertaking the liabilities of a subscription. The creepy pirate would have plenty of takers in a big city. Should Creep have a fast burner and processor and be required to spend significant amounts of time at the computer anyway or should creep want a way to pay for his World of Warcraft time that he can do while playing World of Warcraft, the time spent to make this title accessible or pirate-able would be nothing. Extrapolate now as to the value, ease, and dirty money to be made doing all this over the internet with something instantly distributable via download once the protection code was cracked? Creep could pay for college, buy even more computers for criminal activity, lessons on how to hide his I p address by hacking into and through other servers, and STILL spend all day and night playing World of Warcraft. With the money to be made for something that hits pop culture fame, like The Da Vinci Code or Tolkien's novels, and the fact that my scenario requires Creep to have little to no skills for coming up with a way to work around the protective software, I'm actually surprised it doesn't happen more often. If the authors and publishers can't opt out of being in the NLS, and we're talking about an instantly downloadable book acquired completely for free as the NLS books are, I can understand why they want more than just the irritation and time factors to keep people from burning to CD as a workaround. Also, given the vast number of titles eventually available through NLS, the far reaching nature of potential piracy and the impact such piracy could have on the authors' incomes and returns for creative work over time, yeah, I'd be worried, particularly since the depth of the library would make a crack program far more worth developing than it would for audible.com's current, though admittedly growing, list of titles? The easy and perpetual access to the books also becomes a significant factor in weighing the concerns of potential piracy. For many authors, NLS has entire bodies of work available, not just a single, more recent title, or a series as does audible or recorded books, or Audiobookstand. Perhaps the only reason piracy hasn't yet happened on a larger scale in audiobooks is that the percentage of the population who can actually enjoy a full length audio book is still relatively small when compared to the percentage who can read print or who can listen to pirated music. As the popularity of audiobooks continues to grow, though, I'm sure the criminal element will follow. As it is, we who rely on audiobooks are still spending large amounts of time scrambling to find all the titles we want in spoken audio format, so perhaps the potential and feasibility for criminal activity over the next five years is not so easy to recognize as our own frustration. [smile] An I agree with you, I'm surprised they're going to allow the Icon to play the books, too. But I'd never day they are paranoid. Me, I'll stick to my bookport; it is just dandy for me, and I don't have the nerves for that type of thing. When I grow up, retire, or win that lotto, I'd love to make my living writing historical trash novels. [grin] So I'm interested in maintaining a certain level of copyright protection. And, for an individual, as you say, why bother? Audible is quite generous with the number of devices you can have activated, so whenever someone's wanted to borrow a title, I put it onto my old "Audible Otis" and let them borrow the whole thing just like borrowing a paperback. MUCH more efficient! I've been using Audible since 2002, so I've plenty of titles that can still go on such an "ancient" gadget. Though I've noticed fewer and fewer titles still have the level one or level two formats available. Again, as the copyright protections get more sophisticated, so must the gadgets, which is exactly where we are with the bookport and NLS. Nice loop, yes? Well, maybe more irritating than nice, but there you've got me. Oh, and thanks to Pam and APH for being straight with us. You've earned my loyalty yet again! And honestly, by the time you have the chance to develop the bookport 2 at the high quality we've gotten used to, I won't be quite so disgruntled over having just gotten mine two years ago and being faced with the need to upgrade! [grin] --Christy http://caution-blind-driver.blogspot.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: bookport-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:bookport-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On > Behalf Of Kitty Litter > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 7:02 PM > To: bookport@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [bookport] Re: Audible vs. NLS > > This is not quite true. The ability to burn certain audible books to CD is > built-in to the audible software. If they wanted too, they could remove that > component from audible manager. Publishers know this and I believe audible > can turn this off on a per book basis. Who in their right mind would screw > around making ten CD's or whatever and then ripping them to mp3? Most people > wouldn't bother. And I'm curious whether the guy who said publishers > wouldn't allow audible to sell their books because of the lack of security > can site the source for that statement? > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.33/1036 - Release Date: 9/28/2007 3:40 > PM > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.33/1036 - Release Date: 9/28/2007 3:40 PM