blind_html Re: List name
- From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:13:02 -0800
alright Blaine, sorry for the confusion, lol.
I haven't herd of a few of the browsers your using except for IE of course and
firefox, and have herd of opera which you mentioned a bit later but don't know
of anyone who uses it myself,
you may want to take franks suggestion on the demo of jaws, and I do believe
window eyes has a download that can be used in a similar fashion, .
on the troubles with windows updates and the windows OS, ? unless your like me
and thrash an OS with heavy use and abuse, like trying out several versions of
a program type for screen reader/jaws compatibility, you shouldn't be having so
much trouble, I get almost every update as there produced, and my OS runs fine
here, no registry glitches at all.
are you by chance using a modified system for greater speed, or possibly a
"registry cleaner" that may actually be doing damage?
I just did an update yesterday and as you can see, I'm running just fine.
there is an screen reader made for the Ubuntu version of Linux, I don't have
there URL handy, but someone on the list should.
the lines are not really well "seen" by screen readers, the newest three jaws
versions do give a note to us about horizontal rule lines but not as a
navigation item, just a sort of "passing note".
on the page of links issue, hmmm, could it be divided into sections with
headers, in jaws at least, you can jump from header to header either in a "next
header" mode or we can jump to the next header of a particular size with a set
of quick key strokes.
if not, then its one of those instances where you just grin and bear it.
on the java thing, I have run into a lot of trouble with java, but as I was
reading your reply, I thought a bit harder and the moderate view is probably
the more likely correct one, visual effects, bad, menu's not good, ones that
(and I found this after I sent out my reply) modify the page formatting, fine,
date and time and other such items, and your mail address scrambler are not a
problem, and except for when one of us wishes to view the code of a page to see
"how that was done" even an java script to call up the appropriate web page
insertion for a specific selection I believe is alright.
one item I do know is a bad thing are the java scripts that call up a pop up
window with a definition or specification sheet that many places use, we get a
header of some scrambled java script call, and nothing else off the page, and
can't move in the page at all.
the font sounds great, in fact I'm going to make a note of it, smile.
as to the change colors stuff, there are a lot of blind or visually impaired
"doodlers" out here, folks that are just computer active enough to open e mails
and type out notes or make a recipe in a text file, and can learn to do some
online shopping, but trying to fix, do maintains on, or alter there computers
settings, "lords no!" as there faces turn ghostly white. so having at least the
dark on light and light on dark options is considered a good item to give the
options for.
another thing I forgot about in my prior message, some places offer two pages,
there home page will have an "accessible pages" link near the top, that will
present the same page, minus the graphics and fancy stuff for those using
magnifiers and readers.
alright just took a look at the web pages, the first one is fine, I could find
things, things were in a definite order and laid out as one would expect.
the second one now... oof, there seems to be a H2 header that was not closed,
and things are, to my screen reader scattered all over the place, what feels
like nav links are in the middle and bottom of the page, I get reoccurring
multiple headers mentioned to me (part of the readers functions) and some seem
housed inside of others.
I think the side bar is partially to blame, I have no clear indication from my
reader where main page stops and side bar begins, so I get stuff all over the
placed. imagine if you would, taking the side bar just as you see it, and
overlaying it onto the main page, making items on the mane page randomly move
up or down to accommodate the side bar items, so everything is there, is
readable, but scrambled together.
this is one place where "frames" are a good thing, most screen readers have
learned to accommodate them, and it does give a distinct break and order to the
frames for reading so things don't get "scrambled".
the sub page looks fine, all is readable and in a proper seeming order.
another resource you might wish to tap into, is the "blind webbers" group at,
send a blank e mail to:
blindwebbers-subscribe@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
with subscribe in the subject line
I hope all this is of assistance to you,
take care,
inthane
----- Original Message -----
From: Robin L. Clark
To: blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:01 AM
Subject: blind_html Re: List name
Hey Elf;
I'm using these browsers to test my pages; Internet Explorer, FireFox with
Fire Vox screen reader (a bit of a pain to get it working half decent), Safari,
WebIE with Thunder screen reader (not too bad) and Opera under Windows XP Pro.
My old computer took a dump after a Microsoft update a few weeks ago messed the
registry system up beyond restore and I'm using my wife's computer. Her name is
Robin, I'm Blaine. I'm toying with the idea of doing a clean install on the old
computer with some distribution of Linux, probably Ubuntu or Fedora. I'd like
to do this for two main reasons. To get rid of Microsoft. I've had trouble
after every single major security update since about February. We've got one
friend who's had trouble with Internet Explorer not connecting, which was our
problem mostly. Every other browser worked just fine but not IE. Another friend
has lost connection with Outlook Express. He has to use his browser to go
online to his ISP and get his email that way. I think MS has finally updated
themselves into some trouble this summer. The other reason I'd like to use
Linux is that it's used commercially by many companies and also by a fairly
large chunk of the public, especially in England and parts of Europe. I think
it might be a good idea to use it and some compatible open source browsers to
make sure everything is OK for those who use Linux. I don't know if there are
any comparable accessibility programs, but I'll find out.
I've looked w3c.org over and also a few other 'authorities'. To say the
tutorials are a bit misleading is OK, but when different 'authorities' can't
agree on what is good page structure, then it's pretty much just do something
and see how it goes for anyone who has the time to check what's been done and
get back with a critique. For example, some authorities say don't use Java
Script for anything, others say it's OK except for visual effects which can
mess up some screen readers. Some say don't use any graphics, others say
graphics are OK as long as they are tagged with alt or title or both.
Headers? I like headers because I'm sighted and they stand out. Didn't
realize they worked well for VI's too. Great!
I've used headers and small graphic bars in place of HR code. Now I'm
wondering if the little bars are too much. Back to the HR code, how well do
screen readers interpret that? Would I be better off using HR?
Hmm... Didn't know about the graphic's name and link problem with screen
readers. I haven't used them and so hadn't tested any of them with my so - so
screen readers. I'll file that bit of info away for later.
I knew that graphics were a bit of a hog, just didn't know how much with
screen readers.
I've heard that frames and iframes are a no - no by some, and OK by others,
so I stay away from them. I have used a bit of list formatting, the ordered,
unordered and definitions styles. Haven't done much with tables.
I haven't used Java Script for anything except obfuscating email address and
playing around with a site search utility so far.
I haven't tried one bit of CGI or PHP yet. I'm still playing around learning
HTML and CSS and a bit of Java Script. Speaking of CSS, I've got a CSS styled
drop down menu that works exactly like the Java Script drop down menu. I
haven't used it in a page yet because I'm not sure how screen readers handle
that. I'm a bit leery since it does work and move just like the Java Script
type.
Now, pages with a ton of links ... I've done that. Didn't know it was such a
pain. Is there a decent way to present a large lineup of links? I've got one
page each of local support links, state-wide support links, US support links
and world-wide support links. That's four pages full! I'd like to keep them
available. When I started the links, I had them all on one page and it grew
into a little monster, so I cut it up, but it's a hydra! It keeps growing!
Graphics again. This brings up an interesting one ... the one group I belong
to just had a convention and when they get the videos and some pictures
processed, they'd like me to arrange them on some pages. I've started a rough
draft until I get a handle of some sort on the size, type and number of files.
I've got them set up from the main index page to a visual index page. That way,
totals or very low vision people can just bypass that index file altogether.
For a font I use Arial Rounded MT bold, Helvetica, Sans Serif. I read a
report that claimed this font was the best all around one to use for low vision
and full vision viewing. I have to agree that it does look good and it reads
easy. I load it in the body statement in a CSS file but I don't make any part
of the CSS persistent, so that anyone who has styles set for their personal
browser or magnifier shouldn't have a problem over-riding my CSS.
For the state PCB site I've used a light tan background with black font. That
went over well with all the low visions that checked the pages. And I now see
that's the primary format on the AFB site! Too much contrast, like black on
white, white on black, red on green and several others can be very tiring to
look at. As a guess, anyone who has a screen magnifier program would probably
have their browser and magnifier set to display everything to what they prefer,
so really, isn't the change colors and more page a bit redundant?
I've worked with the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind main state
organization's Communications Committee to cleanup and brighten up their site.
It's http://pcb1.org/.
I'm also working solo on a main site and a sub-site for our local chapter of
the PCB. The main site is http://pcb-clrfld-jeff.pbwiki.com/ and there's no way
I can clean up all the PBwiki clutter on those pages. I don't have access to
that part of it.
The sub-site is one level below the previous site,
http://pcb-clrfld-jeff.pbwiki.com/f/FrontPage.htm. It's clean of the PBwiki
page coding. For the sub-site, I've used a combination of background images and
background colors from page to page. Waiting to get more input on which is
preferred. Later on, I think I'll trim the upper directory to probably one
introductory page and direct to the index file in the subdirectory.
Thanks Elf
Blaine
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