blind_html Re: List name

  • From: "The Elf" <inthaneelf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 14:13:02 -0800

alright Blaine, sorry for the confusion, lol. 

I haven't herd of a few of the browsers your using except for IE of course and 
firefox, and have herd of opera which you mentioned a bit later but don't know 
of anyone who uses it myself, 

you may want to take franks suggestion on the demo of jaws, and I do believe 
window eyes has a download that can be used in a similar fashion, .

on the troubles with windows updates and the windows OS, ? unless your like me 
and thrash an OS with heavy use and abuse, like trying out several versions of 
a program type for screen reader/jaws compatibility, you shouldn't be having so 
much trouble, I get almost every update as there produced, and my OS runs fine 
here, no registry glitches at all. 

are you by chance using a modified system for greater speed, or possibly a 
"registry cleaner" that may actually be doing damage? 
I just did an update yesterday and as you can see, I'm running just fine. 

there is an screen reader made for the Ubuntu  version of Linux, I don't have 
there URL handy, but someone on the list should. 

the lines are not really well "seen" by screen readers, the newest three jaws 
versions do give a note to us about horizontal rule lines but not as a 
navigation item, just a sort of "passing note". 

on the page of links issue, hmmm, could it be divided into sections with 
headers, in jaws at least, you can jump from header to header either in a "next 
header" mode or we can jump to the next header of a particular size with a set 
of quick key strokes. 
if not, then its one of those instances where you just grin and bear it. 

on the java thing, I have run into a lot of trouble with java, but as I was 
reading your reply, I thought a bit harder and the moderate view is probably 
the more likely correct one, visual effects, bad, menu's not good, ones that 
(and I found this after I sent out my reply) modify the page formatting, fine, 
date and time  and other such items, and your mail address scrambler are not a 
problem, and except for when one of us wishes to view the code of a page to see 
"how that was done" even an java script to call up the appropriate web page 
insertion for a specific selection I believe is alright. 

one item I do know is a bad thing are the java scripts that call up a pop up 
window with a definition or specification sheet that many places use, we get a 
header of some scrambled java script call, and nothing else off the page, and 
can't move in the page at all. 

the font sounds great, in fact I'm going to make a note of it, smile. 

as to the change colors stuff, there are a lot of blind or visually impaired 
"doodlers" out here, folks that are just computer active enough to open e mails 
and type out notes or make a recipe in a text file, and can learn to do some 
online shopping, but trying to fix, do maintains on, or alter there computers 
settings, "lords no!" as there faces turn ghostly white. so having at least the 
dark on light and light on dark options is considered a good item to give the 
options for. 

another thing I forgot about in my prior message, some places offer two pages, 
there home page will have an "accessible pages" link near the top, that will 
present the same page, minus the graphics and fancy stuff for those using 
magnifiers and readers. 

alright just took a look at the web pages, the first one is fine, I could find 
things, things were in a definite order and laid out as one would expect. 

the second one now... oof, there seems to be a H2 header that was not closed, 
and things are, to my screen reader scattered all over the place, what feels 
like nav links are in the middle and bottom of the page, I get reoccurring 
multiple headers mentioned to me (part of the readers functions) and some seem 
housed inside of others. 

I think the side bar is partially to blame, I have no clear indication from my 
reader where main page stops and side bar begins, so I get stuff all over the 
placed. imagine if you would, taking the side bar just as you see it, and 
overlaying it onto the main page, making items on the mane page randomly move 
up or down to accommodate the side bar items, so everything is there, is 
readable, but scrambled together. 

this is one place where "frames" are a good thing, most screen readers have 
learned to accommodate them, and it does give a distinct break and order to the 
frames for reading so things don't get "scrambled". 

the sub page looks fine, all is readable and in a proper seeming order. 

another resource you might wish to tap into, is the "blind webbers" group at,
send a blank e mail to:
with subscribe in the subject line

I hope all this is of assistance to you, 

take care,
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robin L. Clark 
  To: blind_html@xxxxxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2008 1:01 AM
  Subject: blind_html Re: List name

  Hey Elf;

  I'm using these browsers to test my pages; Internet Explorer, FireFox with 
Fire Vox screen reader (a bit of a pain to get it working half decent), Safari, 
WebIE with Thunder screen reader (not too bad) and Opera under Windows XP Pro. 
My old computer took a dump after a Microsoft update a few weeks ago messed the 
registry system up beyond restore and I'm using my wife's computer. Her name is 
Robin, I'm Blaine. I'm toying with the idea of doing a clean install on the old 
computer with some distribution of Linux, probably Ubuntu or Fedora. I'd like 
to do this for two main reasons. To get rid of Microsoft. I've had trouble 
after every single major security update since about February. We've got one 
friend who's had trouble with Internet Explorer not connecting, which was our 
problem mostly. Every other browser worked just fine but not IE. Another friend 
has lost connection with Outlook Express. He has to use his browser to go 
online to his ISP and get his email that way. I think MS has finally updated 
themselves into some trouble this summer. The other reason I'd like to use 
Linux is that it's used commercially by many companies and also by a fairly 
large chunk of the public, especially in England and parts of Europe. I think 
it might be a good idea to use it and some compatible open source browsers to 
make sure everything is OK for those who use Linux. I don't know if there are 
any comparable accessibility programs, but I'll find out.

  I've looked over and also a few other 'authorities'. To say the 
tutorials are a bit misleading is OK, but when different 'authorities' can't 
agree on what is good page structure, then it's pretty much just do something 
and see how it goes for anyone who has the time to check what's been done and 
get back with a critique. For example, some authorities say don't use Java 
Script for anything, others say it's OK except for visual effects which can 
mess up some screen readers. Some say don't use any graphics, others say 
graphics are OK as long as they are tagged with alt or title or both.

  Headers? I like headers because I'm sighted and they stand out. Didn't 
realize they worked well for VI's too. Great!

  I've used headers and small graphic bars in place of HR code. Now I'm 
wondering if the little bars are too much. Back to the HR code, how well do 
screen readers interpret that? Would I be better off using HR?

  Hmm... Didn't know about the graphic's name and link problem with screen 
readers. I haven't used them and so hadn't tested any of them with my so - so 
screen readers. I'll file that bit of info away for later.

  I knew that graphics were a bit of a hog, just didn't know how much with 
screen readers.

  I've heard that frames and iframes are a no - no by some, and OK by others, 
so I stay away from them. I have used a bit of list formatting, the ordered, 
unordered and definitions styles. Haven't done much with tables.

  I haven't used Java Script for anything except obfuscating email address and 
playing around with a site search utility so far.

  I haven't tried one bit of CGI or PHP yet. I'm still playing around learning 
HTML and CSS and a bit of Java Script. Speaking of CSS, I've got a CSS styled 
drop down menu that works exactly like the Java Script drop down menu. I 
haven't used it in a page yet because I'm not sure how screen readers handle 
that. I'm a bit leery since it does work and move just like the Java Script 

  Now, pages with a ton of links ... I've done that. Didn't know it was such a 
pain. Is there a decent way to present a large lineup of links? I've got one 
page each of local support links, state-wide support links, US support links 
and world-wide support links. That's four pages full! I'd like to keep them 
available. When I started the links, I had them all on one page and it grew 
into a little monster, so I cut it up, but it's a hydra! It keeps growing!

  Graphics again. This brings up an interesting one ... the one group I belong 
to just had a convention and when they get the videos and some pictures 
processed, they'd like me to arrange them on some pages. I've started a rough 
draft until I get a handle of some sort on the size, type and number of files. 
I've got them set up from the main index page to a visual index page. That way, 
totals or very low vision people can just bypass that index file altogether.

  For a font I use Arial Rounded MT bold, Helvetica, Sans Serif. I read a 
report that claimed this font was the best all around one to use for low vision 
and full vision viewing. I have to agree that it does look good and it reads 
easy. I load it in the body statement in a CSS file but I don't make any part 
of the CSS persistent, so that anyone who has styles set for their personal 
browser or magnifier shouldn't have a problem over-riding my CSS.

  For the state PCB site I've used a light tan background with black font. That 
went over well with all the low visions that checked the pages. And I now see 
that's the primary format on the AFB site! Too much contrast, like black on 
white, white on black, red on green and several others can be very tiring to 
look at. As a guess, anyone who has a screen magnifier program would probably 
have their browser and magnifier set to display everything to what they prefer, 
so really, isn't the change colors and more page a bit redundant?

  I've worked with the Pennsylvania Council of the Blind main state 
organization's Communications Committee to cleanup and brighten up their site. 
  I'm also working solo on a main site and a sub-site for our local chapter of 
the PCB. The main site is and there's no way 
I can clean up all the PBwiki clutter on those pages. I don't have access to 
that part of it.
  The sub-site is one level below the previous site, It's clean of the PBwiki 
page coding. For the sub-site, I've used a combination of background images and 
background colors from page to page. Waiting to get more input on which is 
preferred. Later on, I think I'll trim the upper directory to probably one 
introductory page and direct to the index file in the subdirectory.

  Thanks Elf

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