I know they've promised to supply braille displays someday, but those things
are expensive, and very expensive to maintain. My prediction is, that
they'll appear way after that accessible money we were promised in 2007.
By the way, either my provider or something on the internet, isn't allowing
me to post directly to the list now. This happened last week, but self
corrected. Today, first it said there was spam in the message. Next time it
said that Freelists doesn't exist.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 11:30 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: one more thought about the stream and the NLS
player
Actually, reading with a Braille display is fine, at least for me. My
Braille display is very small, 18 characters, I think, and I set up the
control keys so the one that advances the display is directly to the right
of the end of the display line. So advancing the display and moving back to
the left side, much as one must do on the page, is very fluid and easy. I
don't use the automatic advance, because if I want to think about something
I read, or, if I have to figure out a word or character, I can do that
without the display running off ahead of me.
I do not think I would like the print devices, even if I could see them.
You're of course right that they seem, in a way, similar, but to my mind,
subjectively, of course, they seem different.
For me, the smaller the device, the better I like it, and that is one thing
about Braille books, they are large and cumbersome, difficult to schlep
around,or to curl up in a chair with.
Since my Braille display is really, really old and probably has no business
working at all at this point, I can't wait for the day that the libraries
provide Braille displays much as they provide the DTBM and the other
machinery they've provided over the years.
On May 25, 2016, at 11:14 AM, Miriam Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
There are folks reading books on braille displays. The mechanics of
doing
that, the idea of getting the display to coordinate with the
computer, the
moving it along because there are only a certain number of cells
available
at one time, it all would take the joy of sitting down with a book
and
simply reading it, away for me. I suppose that some people who read
E books
in print on a Kindle or other such device, may have a bit of that
feeling,
but it certainly has to be easier than reading with a braille
display.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman
Humel
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 10:34 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: one more thought about the stream and
the NLS
player
There are so many Braille books available, both in hard copy and
.brf files.
I agree with you, Miriam, about the quiet, the experience of reading
inside
your own head without something yapping at you. But, even after the
long,
hard process of learning to read Braille as an adult at a speed that
was at
least quick enough to be enjoyable, I read very little Braille these
days.
So much is available in audio of one sort or another, and even .brf
files
can be converted to text and read on computer, or other electronic
device.
I always mean to get back to reading some book or other in Braille,
but
somehow, I never do, and using Braille has become basically the
result of
needing information in that format for whatever reason.
If the electronic stuff ever crashes and burns, god forbid, I'm
sunk!
On May 24, 2016, at 11:17 PM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
It's true that if you learn braille as an adult, you'll read more
slowly
than if you learned as a young child. But it is also very possible
to learn
and to read books at a passable speed. I know because I did it.
There was
much effort involved, but I was highly motivated and I had a really
good
teacher. There are certainly more books than just religious tracts,
lots of
them, both fiction and non fiction. And I believe that all the
Bookshare
books are available in braille also. The real advantage is that the
experience of reading braille is like reading print. It's quiet.
It's in
your head. No voice, human or synthetic, distort what the writer is
trying
to communicate to you. But for us now? It's slower and more
difficult.
However, all my important names and addresses are on 4 by 6 index
cards in a
box. I have all kinds of other braille notes. I jot down things,
like book
titles or other stuff as I come across it on the computer. If the
power is
out, I have two phones that don't depend on power and I don't need
to listen
to anything powered by electricity or a battery to find a number. I
have
recipes from when I actually cooked meals for people, in braille. I
make
braille labels for all my medications. I use brief braille notes for
all
kinds of stuff. If someone on the phone, tells me to grab a pencil
to write
something down, I write it down on the 5 by 7 card that is always
sitting in
my braille writer, just for that purpose. I have another braille
writer in
the kitchen where I jot down things for next week's shopping list.
To me,
that's faster and more efficient than recording notes. But perhaps
that has
to do with my age and related tendency to old fashioned solutions,
or to
having had enough partial vision so that reading and writing were my
dominant way of accessing information.
Miriam
________________________________
From: blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger
Loran
Bailey (Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC)
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 10:09 PM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: one more thought about the stream and
the NLS
player
In fact, I can point to an example of giving up as a part of my cost
benefit
analysis. It was Braille. I had actually learned to read it by the
time I
gave up too. The trouble was that I was reading at a rate of about
one page
every forty-five minutes and each of those forty-five minutes was a
grueling
ordeal. Since a Braille page is about a third of a print page it was
incredibly frustrating that I could not go faster. At first I
neglected to
practice sometimes because I was not in a mood for self torture.
Then I
started considering just how much was available in Braille for me to
read
anyway and what kind of material it was. Actually, most of it seemed
to be
bibles and religious tracts. I probably could have improved if I had
stuck
with it, but I finally decided that it was just not worth the
effort. One of
the big advantages of it that had been promoted to me was the
ability to
write myself notes, but by then I was using a pocket tape recorder
for that.
Most bills I could effectively access by calling the company's
customer
service number. They might have Braille menus in restaurants, but I
didn't
exactly frequent restaurants much. Altogether it just did not seem
to be
worth continuing, so I quit and have used what I learned for only an
occasional label since.
On 5/24/2016 6:15 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Sometimes "giving up," if that's the way one wants to look at it is
the result of exactly that cost/benefit analysis to which you refer.
And I take your point that technical things don't come easily to
you.
On May 24, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Roger Loran Bailey (Redacted sender
"rogerbailey81" for DMARC) < <mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I have no idea how old you are, Alice, butt at the age of
sixty-two I am considered elderly. Somehow the phrase technically
minded is
a phrase that I would have never applied to myself. It is, indeed,
true that
some people find it easier to learn some kinds of things than others
and the
reason I do not consider myself technically minded is because those
technical subjects have always been the most difficult for me. I was
always
the type who could take a lab and lecture course and ace the lecture
and
flunk the lab. I find that I do my best learning by reading
narratives. I
read a history book and I learn history. I read a technical manual
and I am
completely lost. I usually don't need to read the history book
again, but
just go on to the next history book. I do need to read the technical
manual
again, though, and oftentimes I need to read it over and over and
intensely
study it. Again, it is often to the point of mental exhaustion and
even then
I have only come to understand barely parts of it. In that case I
just gird
myself for more mental exhaustion and try again. Of course, as much
as I
might want to, I will never learn all of human knowledge. There is
just too
much of it and no one person will ever accomplish that task. That
means that
I have to do a bit of a cost benefit analysis before I start to
learn
something. I have to ask myself if the benefit of learning a certain
thing
will be worth the agony of learning it and I know beforehand what
kinds of
subjects will give me the most agony. If I decide that the benefit
will be
great enough, even if the benefit is only that I just will feel good
about
knowing the subject, I will jump into learning it. Sometimes it is
easy and
sometimes it is hard. Sometimes it is so hard that I cannot
accomplish it.
The example that always comes to my mind as a subject that I could
not
master was organic chemistry. Somehow I managed to barely pass my
classes in
it, but I really do not think I learned it very well and I tried
very hard
too. Nevertheless, it still remains that if you do try to learn
something
you might not learn it, but if you give up before you even try you
will not
learn it and that is the case no matter how old you are.
On 5/24/2016 3:40 PM, Alice Dampman Humel wrote:
Roger, I had to smile at your distinction between
loving to learn and loving to know. I once had a violin student, she
wasn't
half bad, who said to me, I don't want to learn to play the violin,
I want
to play the violin. I wonder what ever became of her?
Remember, too, that you are still significantly
younger than Miriam or I, and you are much more technically minded
and
inclined than many, and, as I said before, what might be easy for
one person
to grasp might be extremely difficult for another whose intelligence
is of a
different nature.
And, I must say, Miriam has far from given up, and,
although she doesn't seem to think this about herself, she is
capable of
doing a hell of a lot with computers and other devices she uses well
and on
a regular basis.
Alice
On May 24, 2016, at 3:15 PM, Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81" for DMARC) <
<mailto:dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Struggle is the right word. In 2003 I bought
a computer and found that about the only thing I knew about it was
how to
even plug it in and I was lucky to know that. I then proceeded to
teach
myself how to use it. I was determined to not have wasted all that
money I
had spent on it. Very often I would work with it all day and go to
bed
absolutely mentally exhausted and then start again the next day. I
actually
had a technical support number to call, but I didn't know what it
was and
the fact that the word technical was in it kept me from calling
because I
thought it would be over my head. Eventually I did find that the
more I
learned the easier it was to learn something else. Then I discovered
technical email lists. My first one was the Bookshare volunteer
list. It was
from that list that I learned how to transfer files. I found out
that my
learning rate did increase considerably once I started reading those
technical support lists. There are still a lot of things I do not
know how
to do though. For one thing, I really don't know where to start in
handling
PDF files and I keep telling myself that I really should get around
to
tackling that too. One thing is certain. If I had told myself that I
am too
old to learn and then given up before I even started you would not
be
reading my words now. I have said here before that I love to learn.
That is
not exactly true. Learning can be exhausting and it can be very
tempting to
give up. What I love is knowing. The trouble is that one cannot know
without
learning. So I gird myself and get down to learning so that I can
then know.
Before I ever touched a computer that became a habit for me and I
still
remember experiencing some mental exhaustion in other areas such as
trigonometry or chemistry.
On 5/24/2016 11:11 AM, Alice Dampman Humel
wrote:
Miriam,
Believe you me, it was an enormous
struggle, but I'm nothing if not persistent and determined, so.and I
am also
sadly aware that I don't know how to do half of what I am sure can
be done
on this computer, the iPhone, and with VoiceOver.
So it has far less to do with
ability than you might think.I don't have that much ability, either.
I think many of us are in the same
boat.we were plain and simple too old when all this techno stuff
exploded
onto the scene!
Alice
On May 24, 2016, at 10:41 AM, Miriam
Vieni <miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alice,
I'm envious of your ability to learn
new things. I'm actually avoiding
upgrades and anything new if I can
help it. I was never trained properly on
computers, have no knack for them,
and didn't learn new stuff easily on
themwhen I was younger. At this
point, if I can just do the things I know
how to do, I'm grateful. At some
point, I'll have to upgrade something and
then I'll be in a mess!
Miriam
________________________________
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alice
Dampman
Humel
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 10:02 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: one
more thought about the stream and the NLS
player
If you use a Mac, you don't even
have to bother with all that companion or
unzipping.
The Mac automatically unzips the
book, and all you have to do is copy it
onto the sd card or the cartridge.
I know Apple products are not for
everyone, but I, for one, am glad I put in
the effort to learn at least part of
what can be done on the Mac with
VoiceOver and how to do it and
thereby released from these constant JAWS
upgrades and the giant conglomerate
of Microbloat, the incompatibilities of
JAWS with different websites and
software, etc.
Not an endorsement, advice or
recommendation, just FYI, one person's
experience and opinion. On May 24,
2016, at 9:20 AM, Miriam Vieni
<miriamvieni@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm glad that you are enjoying the
stream. There is a piece of
software from
Humanware that was developed for the
stream 1. It's called the
Humanware
Companion Software. Once it's
downloaded, it makes transferring and
opening
books very easy.
Miriam
-----Original Message-----
From:
blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[
<mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
mailto:blind-democracy-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
Martian.Lady
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 1:13 AM
To: blind-democracy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [blind-democracy] Re: one
more thought about the stream and
the NLS
player
Hi
I definitely am not a blind gadget
geek. I have a Windows 7
computer
because Microsoft made me give up my
Windows XP computer. I have a
flip
phone from Walmart which cost
$19.95. I bought a Victor Stream so I
could
download BARD and Book share books
directly because I didn't know
how to
transfer books from the BARD site
through the computer. As I said
before I
love my stream.
Marsha
