[bksvol-discuss] indentations

   Dear Jake and  Fellow Booksharians,

Jake, It's my impression that you told us the Bookshare tools remove any indentations we include in a file we upload. Since most of us who read Bookshare books in braille are using a continuous linear refreshable display, I guess the lack of indentation doesn't matter much though I'd notice if extra spaces were blank at the start of a paragraph.

What about people who buy braille embossed books from Bookshare. Are those paragraphs flush with the left hand margin, too?

I really prefer that indentations be present if they were there in the print book, but will naturally be glad to have access to a book without indentations rather than not be able to read the book at all. I just want to understand all I can about formatting so I can reproduce it as faithfully as possible while avoiding formatting which will be obliterated by the tools and therefore a waste of time.

I'm a fan of Robin Cook, too and hope you enjoyed Contagion and Blind Sight. You said Chromosome Six was strange. Did it get better as you read, or did the strangeness overwhelm the elements which make most of Robin's novels such page turners? . Hope you're feeling better and are enjoying the rest of your vacation to the fullest.

Thanks in advance for your patience in helping me understand the ins and outs of formatting.

Always with love,

Lissi
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:39 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about brackets, Braille translation, and multiple spaces between words


Hi Cindy,

The tools at their current level to my knowledge do not do anything with indentation. It may someday be worthwhile to do so, but I see that as VERY far in the future.

In most cases indentation again will be controlled by the DAISY reader. Viewed in a web browser or Kurzweil there isn't any indentation by default--but other programs do have options on how to do this I've been told. As for Braille there are rules for indentation that are followed so it won't be making a difference either until a far time in the future.

Yes, I've been home since last week. I was sick earlier this week but enjoyed reading some books (from BookShare of course) mainly Blindsight and Contageon by Robin Cook as well as the Hunt for Red October by Tom Clancy. I also validated a non fiction title American Unbound the Bush Revolution in Foreign Policy that I found somewhat interesting. I'll probably write something up for my blog later tonight or tomorrow about them. Currently I'm reading the next Cook book, Chromosome 6 and finding it to be very...umm...odd.

Happy Holidays,
Jake
----- Original Message ----- From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:31 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about brackets, Braille translation, and multiple spaces between words


Thanks, Jake. That solves the skipping a line or not
question. what about indenting paragraphs. I can't
quite tell from your note whether indenting is
o.k.--nay, good--or just leaving paragraphs alone if
they are not indented but do have the paragraph symbol
at the end of each one.

Cindy

P.S. Are you up late studeying or are you, YAY!!~
finished? smile


--- Jake Brownell <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Cindy,

It doesn't really matter whether you insert a blank
line or not. Why not?
Because:

BookShare tools analyze the text and mark them up
with special tags. They do
so using XML, a language that is meant for marking
up documents. One of the
common tags represents a paragraph.

The tools mark streams of text into paragraphs
whether they are followed by
a single line break or a double one.

So skipping lines doesn't matter because the tools
are going to determine
what a paragraph is.

In the DAISY case, the software used to read the
material will look at the
files and see the marked up text. It then decides
(sometimes based on user
preferences) how to display a paragraph. When viewed
with a web browser it
looks much like a web pages paragraphs, and most
screen readers will
simulate a blank line in between paragraphs. If
something like Kurzweil is
used there is no blank line simulation. It's all up
to the software!

In the case of Braille, there are specific rules for
displaying paragraphs
that the translator will follow. Again though if the
file is read
electronically rather than on hard copy Braille
paper, the user may be able
to use software settings to tailor paragraph output
to his or her specific
liking.

So finally, it doesn't matter what you give the
tools, skipped line or not.
What users prefer is up to them, but by that same
token it is their
responsibility to setup their reading apparatus to
their liking.

I hope this makes the waters a little more clear.

Jake
----- Original Message ----- From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:06 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
brackets, Braille translation,
and multiple spaces between words


> THe misconception might have arisen from the fact
that
> one member complained about "reading" (I don't
know if
> it is Braille or sound) spaces used for indenting
or
> other formatting. I've solved the problem by
setting
> the first line in paragraph in the Format file to
.2
> or .3 It means that sometimes I have to change the
> first line of the page to None, but that's a minor
> problem.
>
> A long time ago when I asked if people preferred
> indented paragraphs or lines skipped between
> paragraphs, the majority who answerd said they
> preferred indented paragraphs. Is it necessar to
do
> anything? Does the paragraph symbol at the end of
one
> paragraph indicate the next paragraph? Is that
> sufficient for Braille or Daisy readers, or should
be
> indent if paragraphs are indented in the book, for
> those who do have sight, all or a little.
>
> Someone sent me an article, the first of a series
of
> Minneapolis NPR, about three blind people and how
they
> "see" Christmas. In the course of that first part
it
> said that all three were legally blind, (from
> different causes and for different lengths of
time)
> but were not totally blind. It said that only 10%
of
> legallhy blind people are totally blind. That
seemed a
> small number to me, but I assume it is correct.
>
> Cindy
> --- Pratik Patel <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Maria et al,
>>
>> I am not aware of bracket problems with braille
>> translations.  As far as
>> I've seen, Bookshare tools are able to convert
>> brackets.  If this is a
>> recent phenomenon, then, as usual, I would
>> appreciate specific book titles
>> where people know brackets are supposed to exist.
 I
>> will be happy to do
>> comparisons.
>>
>> As far as spacing goes, Bookshare tools do not--I
>> repeat, do not--remove
>> extra spaces.  As a self-flagellating person, I
>> would love to be proven
>> wrong.  So, specific examples would be very
helpful.
>>  You just need to be
>> careful of headers and/org footers.
>>
>> Pratik
>>
>>   _____
>>
>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
>> Behalf Of Maria Kristic
>> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:56 AM
>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Questions about
brackets,
>> Braille translation, and
>> multiple spaces between words
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> In reading some of the recent messages on-list,
I,
>> as someone new, have a
>> few questions.
>>
>> 1. First, about brackets. Someone mentioned that
>> brackets didn't appear
>> in Braille copies of books. As there is a Grade 2
>> Braille equivalent for a
>> bracket, albeit two cells long (dot 6, dots
2-3-5-6
>> for an opening bracket
>> and dots 2-3-5-6, dot 3 for a closing one), I'm
>> wondering, what does the
>> Braille translation software used by Bookshare do
to
>> them? I would think
>> that, since there is a Braille character for
them,
>> they are translated
>> correctly, but apparently, that's not the case?
>> What's done to them, then?
>> Are they converted in to words, as in the words
>> "left bracket" or "right
>> bracket"? I know that Duxbury will convert
symbols
>> with no Grade 2
>> equivalents to words rather than leaving them in
>> Computer Braille, and I
>> can't even begin to tell you how much that
irritates
>> me (for instance, a \
>> symbol would appear in a BRF file as literally
the
>> word "backslash" (without
>> the quotes)), but I just checked with it, and
even
>> Duxbury translates them
>> correctly, which is making me wonder? If no one
>> knows for sure, can someone
>> please point me to a book which they know should,
in
>> theory, contain
>> brackets, so that I can take a look to see for
>> myself? I ask because I used
>> them in Girl in the Shadows, so I want to know
>> whether anything out of the
>> ordinary happens with them; this way, I can
decide
>> whether I should be
>> worried about this issue or not.
>>
>> 2. Second, out of curiosity, does anyone happen
to
>> know which Braille
>> translation software Bookshare uses? If something
>> strange is indeed
>> happening to brackets, I'm wondering which
>> translator exhibits this odd
>> behavior?
>>
>> 3. Finally, I'm wondering about the issue someone
>> mentioned about words
>> with multiple spaces between them. I thought I'd
>> read on this list before
>> that the software which converts books to BRF and
>> DAISY converts all
>> multiple spaces in to one (someone was told,
>> therefore, not to indent
>> paragraphs), so I'm confused. If the software
>> converts all multiple,
>> consecutive spaces to one, how can there still be
>> words with multiple spaces
>> between them? Does this stripping of spaces take
>> place only in specific
>> places, such as the beginning/end of a page, the
>> beginning of a sentence, or
>> somewhere else?
>>
>> Thanks much to anyone who can clarify this for
me,
>> and hope all of you have
>> a happy holiday season!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Maria
>> ________________________________________
>> Maria Kristic
>> Skype: MariaKristic
>> AIM: MCKristic
>> E-Mail and MSN:  <mailto:maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Google Talk:  <mailto:Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx
>> Yahoo Messenger:  <mailto:mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx>
>> mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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