[bksvol-discuss] Re: indentations
- From: Grandma Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:19:33 -0800 (PST)
Lissi,
I wasn't aware that bookshare deletes
indentations--just that it deletes tabs and turns
multiple spaces, i.e., those made by the space bar,
into one space. I indent by setting the "first line:"
that's in "paragraph" in the Format file to .2 or .3.
The automatically creates an indented paragraph. The
default, a least in my Word, is .5, which I eel is too
big, but I may be wrong. this means, though, that if
the first line of a page should not be indented, I
have to change it, but that may not really be
necessary--just something I do.
--- Estelnalissi <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Dear Jake and Fellow Booksharians,
>
> Jake, It's my impression that you told us the
> Bookshare tools remove any
> indentations we include in a file we upload. Since
> most of us who read
> Bookshare books in braille are using a continuous
> linear refreshable
> display, I guess the lack of indentation doesn't
> matter much though I'd
> notice if extra spaces were blank at the start of a
> paragraph.
>
> What about people who buy braille embossed books
> from Bookshare. Are those
> paragraphs flush with the left hand margin, too?
>
> I really prefer that indentations be present if they
> were there in the print
> book, but will naturally be glad to have access to a
> book without
> indentations rather than not be able to read the
> book at all. I just want to
> understand all I can about formatting so I can
> reproduce it as faithfully as
> possible while avoiding formatting which will be
> obliterated by the tools
> and therefore a waste of time.
>
> I'm a fan of Robin Cook, too and hope you enjoyed
> Contagion and Blind
> Sight. You said Chromosome Six was strange. Did it
> get better as you read,
> or did the strangeness overwhelm the elements which
> make most of Robin's
> novels such page turners? . Hope you're feeling
> better and are enjoying the
> rest of your vacation to the fullest.
>
> Thanks in advance for your patience in helping me
> understand the ins and
> outs of formatting.
>
> Always with love,
>
> Lissi
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:39 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> brackets, Braille translation,
> and multiple spaces between words
>
>
> > Hi Cindy,
> >
> > The tools at their current level to my knowledge
> do not do anything with
> > indentation. It may someday be worthwhile to do
> so, but I see that as VERY
> > far in the future.
> >
> > In most cases indentation again will be controlled
> by the DAISY reader.
> > Viewed in a web browser or Kurzweil there isn't
> any indentation by
> > default--but other programs do have options on how
> to do this I've been
> > told. As for Braille there are rules for
> indentation that are followed so
> > it won't be making a difference either until a far
> time in the future.
> >
> > Yes, I've been home since last week. I was sick
> earlier this week but
> > enjoyed reading some books (from BookShare of
> course) mainly Blindsight
> > and Contageon by Robin Cook as well as the Hunt
> for Red October by Tom
> > Clancy. I also validated a non fiction title
> American Unbound the Bush
> > Revolution in Foreign Policy that I found somewhat
> interesting. I'll
> > probably write something up for my blog later
> tonight or tomorrow about
> > them. Currently I'm reading the next Cook book,
> Chromosome 6 and finding
> > it to be very...umm...odd.
> >
> > Happy Holidays,
> > Jake
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:31 AM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> brackets, Braille
> > translation, and multiple spaces between words
> >
> >
> >> Thanks, Jake. That solves the skipping a line or
> not
> >> question. what about indenting paragraphs. I
> can't
> >> quite tell from your note whether indenting is
> >> o.k.--nay, good--or just leaving paragraphs alone
> if
> >> they are not indented but do have the paragraph
> symbol
> >> at the end of each one.
> >>
> >> Cindy
> >>
> >> P.S. Are you up late studeying or are you, YAY!!~
> >> finished? smile
> >>
> >>
> >> --- Jake Brownell <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Cindy,
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't really matter whether you insert a
> blank
> >>> line or not. Why not?
> >>> Because:
> >>>
> >>> BookShare tools analyze the text and mark them
> up
> >>> with special tags. They do
> >>> so using XML, a language that is meant for
> marking
> >>> up documents. One of the
> >>> common tags represents a paragraph.
> >>>
> >>> The tools mark streams of text into paragraphs
> >>> whether they are followed by
> >>> a single line break or a double one.
> >>>
> >>> So skipping lines doesn't matter because the
> tools
> >>> are going to determine
> >>> what a paragraph is.
> >>>
> >>> In the DAISY case, the software used to read the
> >>> material will look at the
> >>> files and see the marked up text. It then
> decides
> >>> (sometimes based on user
> >>> preferences) how to display a paragraph. When
> viewed
> >>> with a web browser it
> >>> looks much like a web pages paragraphs, and most
> >>> screen readers will
> >>> simulate a blank line in between paragraphs. If
> >>> something like Kurzweil is
> >>> used there is no blank line simulation. It's all
> up
> >>> to the software!
> >>>
> >>> In the case of Braille, there are specific rules
> for
> >>> displaying paragraphs
> >>> that the translator will follow. Again though if
> the
> >>> file is read
> >>> electronically rather than on hard copy Braille
> >>> paper, the user may be able
> >>> to use software settings to tailor paragraph
> output
> >>> to his or her specific
> >>> liking.
> >>>
> >>> So finally, it doesn't matter what you give the
> >>> tools, skipped line or not.
> >>> What users prefer is up to them, but by that
> same
> >>> token it is their
> >>> responsibility to setup their reading apparatus
> to
> >>> their liking.
> >>>
> >>> I hope this makes the waters a little more
> clear.
> >>>
> >>> Jake
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:06 AM
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> >>> brackets, Braille translation,
> >>> and multiple spaces between words
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > THe misconception might have arisen from the
> fact
> >>> that
> >>> > one member complained about "reading" (I don't
> >>> know if
> >>> > it is Braille or sound) spaces used for
> indenting
> >>> or
> >>> > other formatting. I've solved the problem by
> >>> setting
> >>> > the first line in paragraph in the Format file
> to
> >>> .2
> >>> > or .3 It means that sometimes I have to change
> the
> >>> > first line of the page to None, but that's a
> minor
> >>> > problem.
> >>> >
> >>> > A long time ago when I asked if people
> preferred
> >>> > indented paragraphs or lines skipped between
> >>> > paragraphs, the majority who answerd said they
> >>> > preferred indented paragraphs. Is it necessar
> to
> >>> do
> >>> > anything? Does the paragraph symbol at the end
> of
> >>> one
> >>> > paragraph indicate the next paragraph? Is that
> >>> > sufficient for Braille or Daisy readers, or
> should
> >>> be
> >>> > indent if paragraphs are indented in the book,
> for
> >>> > those who do have sight, all or a little.
> >>> >
> >>> > Someone sent me an article, the first of a
> series
> >>> of
> >>> > Minneapolis NPR, about three blind people and
> how
> >>> they
> >>> > "see" Christmas. In the course of that first
> part
> >>> it
> >>> > said that all three were legally blind, (from
> >>> > different causes and for different lengths of
> >>> time)
> >>> > but were not totally blind. It said that only
> 10%
> >>> of
> >>> > legallhy blind people are totally blind. That
> >>> seemed a
> >>> > small number to me, but I assume it is
> correct.
> >>> >
> >>> > Cindy
> >>> > --- Pratik Patel <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> Maria et al,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> I am not aware of bracket problems with
> braille
> >>> >> translations. As far as
> >>> >> I've seen, Bookshare tools are able to
> convert
> >>> >> brackets. If this is a
> >>> >> recent phenomenon, then, as usual, I would
> >>> >> appreciate specific book titles
> >>> >> where people know brackets are supposed to
> exist.
> >>> I
> >>> >> will be happy to do
> >>> >> comparisons.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> As far as spacing goes, Bookshare tools do
> not--I
> >>> >> repeat, do not--remove
> >>> >> extra spaces. As a self-flagellating person,
> I
> >>> >> would love to be proven
> >>> >> wrong. So, specific examples would be very
> >>> helpful.
> >>> >> You just need to be
> >>> >> careful of headers and/org footers.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Pratik
> >>> >>
> >>> >> _____
> >>> >>
> >>> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >>> >> Behalf Of Maria Kristic
> >>> >> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:56 AM
> >>> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Questions about
> >>> brackets,
> >>> >> Braille translation, and
> >>> >> multiple spaces between words
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Hi all,
> >>> >>
> >>> >> In reading some of the recent messages
> on-list,
> >>> I,
> >>> >> as someone new, have a
> >>> >> few questions.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 1. First, about brackets. Someone mentioned
> that
> >>> >> brackets didn't appear
> >>> >> in Braille copies of books. As there is a
> Grade 2
> >>> >> Braille equivalent for a
> >>> >> bracket, albeit two cells long (dot 6, dots
> >>> 2-3-5-6
> >>> >> for an opening bracket
> >>> >> and dots 2-3-5-6, dot 3 for a closing one),
> I'm
> >>> >> wondering, what does the
> >>> >> Braille translation software used by
> Bookshare do
> >>> to
> >>> >> them? I would think
> >>> >> that, since there is a Braille character for
> >>> them,
> >>> >> they are translated
> >>> >> correctly, but apparently, that's not the
> case?
> >>> >> What's done to them, then?
> >>> >> Are they converted in to words, as in the
> words
> >>> >> "left bracket" or "right
> >>> >> bracket"? I know that Duxbury will convert
> >>> symbols
> >>> >> with no Grade 2
> >>> >> equivalents to words rather than leaving them
> in
> >>> >> Computer Braille, and I
> >>> >> can't even begin to tell you how much that
> >>> irritates
> >>> >> me (for instance, a \
> >>> >> symbol would appear in a BRF file as
> literally
> >>> the
> >>> >> word "backslash" (without
> >>> >> the quotes)), but I just checked with it, and
> >>> even
> >>> >> Duxbury translates them
> >>> >> correctly, which is making me wonder? If no
> one
> >>> >> knows for sure, can someone
> >>> >> please point me to a book which they know
> should,
> >>> in
> >>> >> theory, contain
> >>> >> brackets, so that I can take a look to see
> for
> >>> >> myself? I ask because I used
> >>> >> them in Girl in the Shadows, so I want to
> know
> >>> >> whether anything out of the
> >>> >> ordinary happens with them; this way, I can
> >>> decide
> >>> >> whether I should be
> >>> >> worried about this issue or not.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 2. Second, out of curiosity, does anyone
> happen
> >>> to
> >>> >> know which Braille
> >>> >> translation software Bookshare uses? If
> something
> >>> >> strange is indeed
> >>> >> happening to brackets, I'm wondering which
> >>> >> translator exhibits this odd
> >>> >> behavior?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> 3. Finally, I'm wondering about the issue
> someone
> >>> >> mentioned about words
> >>> >> with multiple spaces between them. I thought
> I'd
> >>> >> read on this list before
> >>> >> that the software which converts books to BRF
> and
> >>> >> DAISY converts all
> >>> >> multiple spaces in to one (someone was told,
> >>> >> therefore, not to indent
> >>> >> paragraphs), so I'm confused. If the software
> >>> >> converts all multiple,
> >>> >> consecutive spaces to one, how can there
> still be
> >>> >> words with multiple spaces
> >>> >> between them? Does this stripping of spaces
> take
> >>> >> place only in specific
> >>> >> places, such as the beginning/end of a page,
> the
> >>> >> beginning of a sentence, or
> >>> >> somewhere else?
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Thanks much to anyone who can clarify this
> for
> >>> me,
> >>> >> and hope all of you have
> >>> >> a happy holiday season!
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Regards,
> >>> >> Maria
> >>> >> ________________________________________
> >>> >> Maria Kristic
> >>> >> Skype: MariaKristic
> >>> >> AIM: MCKristic
> >>> >> E-Mail and MSN:
> <mailto:maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> Google Talk:
> <mailto:Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx
> >>> >> Yahoo Messenger:
> <mailto:mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>> >> mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
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