[bksvol-discuss] Re: indentations
- From: Grandma Cindy <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 10:55:13 -0800 (PST)
Jake,
Does that mean that if paragraphs are indented by
setting the indentation for first line rather than by
using the space bar that the indentations will be
eliminated? If so, then I'll stop doing that.
Cindy
--- Jake Brownell <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Lissi,
>
> Yes, the tools will at least at this time ignore
> indentation. I'm not sure
> how a Braille hard copy would look. I imagine it's
> produced like most other
> hard copy Braille. It's probably what the translator
> would produce set in
> literary braille. I assume it would have the two
> space indent scheme?
>
> As for Chromosome 6, I waited until tonight to reply
> so I could write after
> having finished the book. It was interesting, but
> significantly different
> feeling. I still liked it, it's just not at the top
> of my list. I don't know
> really, it just seemed more supernatural I guess, or
> SciFi like.
>
> Jake
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:46 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] indentations
>
>
> > Dear Jake and Fellow Booksharians,
> >
> > Jake, It's my impression that you told us the
> Bookshare tools remove any
> > indentations we include in a file we upload. Since
> most of us who read
> > Bookshare books in braille are using a continuous
> linear refreshable
> > display, I guess the lack of indentation doesn't
> matter much though I'd
> > notice if extra spaces were blank at the start of
> a paragraph.
> >
> > What about people who buy braille embossed books
> from Bookshare. Are those
> > paragraphs flush with the left hand margin, too?
> >
> > I really prefer that indentations be present if
> they were there in the
> > print book, but will naturally be glad to have
> access to a book without
> > indentations rather than not be able to read the
> book at all. I just want
> > to understand all I can about formatting so I can
> reproduce it as
> > faithfully as possible while avoiding formatting
> which will be obliterated
> > by the tools and therefore a waste of time.
> >
> > I'm a fan of Robin Cook, too and hope you enjoyed
> Contagion and Blind
> > Sight. You said Chromosome Six was strange. Did it
> get better as you read,
> > or did the strangeness overwhelm the elements
> which make most of Robin's
> > novels such page turners? . Hope you're feeling
> better and are enjoying
> > the rest of your vacation to the fullest.
> >
> > Thanks in advance for your patience in helping me
> understand the ins and
> > outs of formatting.
> >
> > Always with love,
> >
> > Lissi
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 2:39 AM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> brackets, Braille
> > translation, and multiple spaces between words
> >
> >
> >> Hi Cindy,
> >>
> >> The tools at their current level to my knowledge
> do not do anything with
> >> indentation. It may someday be worthwhile to do
> so, but I see that as
> >> VERY far in the future.
> >>
> >> In most cases indentation again will be
> controlled by the DAISY reader.
> >> Viewed in a web browser or Kurzweil there isn't
> any indentation by
> >> default--but other programs do have options on
> how to do this I've been
> >> told. As for Braille there are rules for
> indentation that are followed so
> >> it won't be making a difference either until a
> far time in the future.
> >>
> >> Yes, I've been home since last week. I was sick
> earlier this week but
> >> enjoyed reading some books (from BookShare of
> course) mainly Blindsight
> >> and Contageon by Robin Cook as well as the Hunt
> for Red October by Tom
> >> Clancy. I also validated a non fiction title
> American Unbound the Bush
> >> Revolution in Foreign Policy that I found
> somewhat interesting. I'll
> >> probably write something up for my blog later
> tonight or tomorrow about
> >> them. Currently I'm reading the next Cook book,
> Chromosome 6 and finding
> >> it to be very...umm...odd.
> >>
> >> Happy Holidays,
> >> Jake
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:31 AM
> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> brackets, Braille
> >> translation, and multiple spaces between words
> >>
> >>
> >>> Thanks, Jake. That solves the skipping a line or
> not
> >>> question. what about indenting paragraphs. I
> can't
> >>> quite tell from your note whether indenting is
> >>> o.k.--nay, good--or just leaving paragraphs
> alone if
> >>> they are not indented but do have the paragraph
> symbol
> >>> at the end of each one.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy
> >>>
> >>> P.S. Are you up late studeying or are you,
> YAY!!~
> >>> finished? smile
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- Jake Brownell <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Cindy,
> >>>>
> >>>> It doesn't really matter whether you insert a
> blank
> >>>> line or not. Why not?
> >>>> Because:
> >>>>
> >>>> BookShare tools analyze the text and mark them
> up
> >>>> with special tags. They do
> >>>> so using XML, a language that is meant for
> marking
> >>>> up documents. One of the
> >>>> common tags represents a paragraph.
> >>>>
> >>>> The tools mark streams of text into paragraphs
> >>>> whether they are followed by
> >>>> a single line break or a double one.
> >>>>
> >>>> So skipping lines doesn't matter because the
> tools
> >>>> are going to determine
> >>>> what a paragraph is.
> >>>>
> >>>> In the DAISY case, the software used to read
> the
> >>>> material will look at the
> >>>> files and see the marked up text. It then
> decides
> >>>> (sometimes based on user
> >>>> preferences) how to display a paragraph. When
> viewed
> >>>> with a web browser it
> >>>> looks much like a web pages paragraphs, and
> most
> >>>> screen readers will
> >>>> simulate a blank line in between paragraphs. If
> >>>> something like Kurzweil is
> >>>> used there is no blank line simulation. It's
> all up
> >>>> to the software!
> >>>>
> >>>> In the case of Braille, there are specific
> rules for
> >>>> displaying paragraphs
> >>>> that the translator will follow. Again though
> if the
> >>>> file is read
> >>>> electronically rather than on hard copy Braille
> >>>> paper, the user may be able
> >>>> to use software settings to tailor paragraph
> output
> >>>> to his or her specific
> >>>> liking.
> >>>>
> >>>> So finally, it doesn't matter what you give the
> >>>> tools, skipped line or not.
> >>>> What users prefer is up to them, but by that
> same
> >>>> token it is their
> >>>> responsibility to setup their reading apparatus
> to
> >>>> their liking.
> >>>>
> >>>> I hope this makes the waters a little more
> clear.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jake
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:06 AM
> >>>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Questions about
> >>>> brackets, Braille translation,
> >>>> and multiple spaces between words
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> > THe misconception might have arisen from the
> fact
> >>>> that
> >>>> > one member complained about "reading" (I
> don't
> >>>> know if
> >>>> > it is Braille or sound) spaces used for
> indenting
> >>>> or
> >>>> > other formatting. I've solved the problem by
> >>>> setting
> >>>> > the first line in paragraph in the Format
> file to
> >>>> .2
> >>>> > or .3 It means that sometimes I have to
> change the
> >>>> > first line of the page to None, but that's a
> minor
> >>>> > problem.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > A long time ago when I asked if people
> preferred
> >>>> > indented paragraphs or lines skipped between
> >>>> > paragraphs, the majority who answerd said
> they
> >>>> > preferred indented paragraphs. Is it necessar
> to
> >>>> do
> >>>> > anything? Does the paragraph symbol at the
> end of
> >>>> one
> >>>> > paragraph indicate the next paragraph? Is
> that
> >>>> > sufficient for Braille or Daisy readers, or
> should
> >>>> be
> >>>> > indent if paragraphs are indented in the
> book, for
> >>>> > those who do have sight, all or a little.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Someone sent me an article, the first of a
> series
> >>>> of
> >>>> > Minneapolis NPR, about three blind people and
> how
> >>>> they
> >>>> > "see" Christmas. In the course of that first
> part
> >>>> it
> >>>> > said that all three were legally blind, (from
> >>>> > different causes and for different lengths of
> >>>> time)
> >>>> > but were not totally blind. It said that only
> 10%
> >>>> of
> >>>> > legallhy blind people are totally blind. That
> >>>> seemed a
> >>>> > small number to me, but I assume it is
> correct.
> >>>> >
> >>>> > Cindy
> >>>> > --- Pratik Patel <pratikp1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>>> >
> >>>> >> Maria et al,
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> I am not aware of bracket problems with
> braille
> >>>> >> translations. As far as
> >>>> >> I've seen, Bookshare tools are able to
> convert
> >>>> >> brackets. If this is a
> >>>> >> recent phenomenon, then, as usual, I would
> >>>> >> appreciate specific book titles
> >>>> >> where people know brackets are supposed to
> exist.
> >>>> I
> >>>> >> will be happy to do
> >>>> >> comparisons.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> As far as spacing goes, Bookshare tools do
> not--I
> >>>> >> repeat, do not--remove
> >>>> >> extra spaces. As a self-flagellating
> person, I
> >>>> >> would love to be proven
> >>>> >> wrong. So, specific examples would be very
> >>>> helpful.
> >>>> >> You just need to be
> >>>> >> careful of headers and/org footers.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Pratik
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> _____
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> >>>> >> Behalf Of Maria Kristic
> >>>> >> Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:56 AM
> >>>> >> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Questions about
> >>>> brackets,
> >>>> >> Braille translation, and
> >>>> >> multiple spaces between words
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Hi all,
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> In reading some of the recent messages
> on-list,
> >>>> I,
> >>>> >> as someone new, have a
> >>>> >> few questions.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> 1. First, about brackets. Someone mentioned
> that
> >>>> >> brackets didn't appear
> >>>> >> in Braille copies of books. As there is a
> Grade 2
> >>>> >> Braille equivalent for a
> >>>> >> bracket, albeit two cells long (dot 6, dots
> >>>> 2-3-5-6
> >>>> >> for an opening bracket
> >>>> >> and dots 2-3-5-6, dot 3 for a closing one),
> I'm
> >>>> >> wondering, what does the
> >>>> >> Braille translation software used by
> Bookshare do
> >>>> to
> >>>> >> them? I would think
> >>>> >> that, since there is a Braille character for
> >>>> them,
> >>>> >> they are translated
> >>>> >> correctly, but apparently, that's not the
> case?
> >>>> >> What's done to them, then?
> >>>> >> Are they converted in to words, as in the
> words
> >>>> >> "left bracket" or "right
> >>>> >> bracket"? I know that Duxbury will convert
> >>>> symbols
> >>>> >> with no Grade 2
> >>>> >> equivalents to words rather than leaving
> them in
> >>>> >> Computer Braille, and I
> >>>> >> can't even begin to tell you how much that
> >>>> irritates
> >>>> >> me (for instance, a \
> >>>> >> symbol would appear in a BRF file as
> literally
> >>>> the
> >>>> >> word "backslash" (without
> >>>> >> the quotes)), but I just checked with it,
> and
> >>>> even
> >>>> >> Duxbury translates them
> >>>> >> correctly, which is making me wonder? If no
> one
> >>>> >> knows for sure, can someone
> >>>> >> please point me to a book which they know
> should,
> >>>> in
> >>>> >> theory, contain
> >>>> >> brackets, so that I can take a look to see
> for
> >>>> >> myself? I ask because I used
> >>>> >> them in Girl in the Shadows, so I want to
> know
> >>>> >> whether anything out of the
> >>>> >> ordinary happens with them; this way, I can
> >>>> decide
> >>>> >> whether I should be
> >>>> >> worried about this issue or not.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> 2. Second, out of curiosity, does anyone
> happen
> >>>> to
> >>>> >> know which Braille
> >>>> >> translation software Bookshare uses? If
> something
> >>>> >> strange is indeed
> >>>> >> happening to brackets, I'm wondering which
> >>>> >> translator exhibits this odd
> >>>> >> behavior?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> 3. Finally, I'm wondering about the issue
> someone
> >>>> >> mentioned about words
> >>>> >> with multiple spaces between them. I thought
> I'd
> >>>> >> read on this list before
> >>>> >> that the software which converts books to
> BRF and
> >>>> >> DAISY converts all
> >>>> >> multiple spaces in to one (someone was told,
> >>>> >> therefore, not to indent
> >>>> >> paragraphs), so I'm confused. If the
> software
> >>>> >> converts all multiple,
> >>>> >> consecutive spaces to one, how can there
> still be
> >>>> >> words with multiple spaces
> >>>> >> between them? Does this stripping of spaces
> take
> >>>> >> place only in specific
> >>>> >> places, such as the beginning/end of a page,
> the
> >>>> >> beginning of a sentence, or
> >>>> >> somewhere else?
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Thanks much to anyone who can clarify this
> for
> >>>> me,
> >>>> >> and hope all of you have
> >>>> >> a happy holiday season!
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Regards,
> >>>> >> Maria
> >>>> >> ________________________________________
> >>>> >> Maria Kristic
> >>>> >> Skype: MariaKristic
> >>>> >> AIM: MCKristic
> >>>> >> E-Mail and MSN:
> <mailto:maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >> maria6289@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >> Google Talk:
> <mailto:Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >> Maria.Kristic@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >> Yahoo Messenger:
> <mailto:mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx>
> >>>> >> mariakristic@xxxxxxxxx
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
> >>>> >
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