[bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation

Thanks, Jake, I didn't know that about K1000.

Evan

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jake Brownell" <jabrown@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 12:45 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


Evan, E, et al,

Kurzweil actually attempts to preserve indentation. You won't hear it in the forms of spaces or tabs though. It uses the paragraph indentation settings to display correctly on the screen. You can see these values under the edit/font submenu.

Granted it does sometimes mess up as all OCR will do.

OpenBook on the other hand decides to split paragraphs
usually with a blank line separating them.

Again, indentation is not currently retained in BookShare's books; it's up to the particular DAISY reader as to whether paragraphs are displayed with a blank line separating them or arbitrarily indented some amount, or not indented at all.

Jake
----- Original Message ----- From: "Evan Reese" <mentat1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


I don't understand it, either, but that is what I have observed.

Evan


----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


Thanks for clarification. I had no idea the commonly used scanning software fails to preserve such indentation format. What a shame!

E.
At 12:43 PM 3/8/2007, you wrote:
I have scanned several books with K1000 and quite a few more with OpenBook before that. I have never seen one have the indentation that is at the beginning of each paragraph. As far as blank lines go, you may be right that a book is properly formatted when scanned - perhaps - but with respect to indentation, which is important, especially in poetry which Cindy was refering to, the two most expensive OCR packages do nothing to preserve it that I have seen. This is why she is trying to ensure that it gets reintroduced for the benefit of those who want to read the original as closely as possible. It is unfortunate that the Bookshare processing has thwarted her efforts, as well as that of others trying to do similar things, but she is not adding things to the book that weren't there originally, but merely trying to preserve the work as it was intended by the author.

Evan

----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:40 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


Cindy I do not understand your adding things to books, things like tabs, extra spacing, indents, margins and such. I thought we are supposed to correct scanos not add stuff to a book. As far as i can tell, a book has formatting in it when scanned without you adding paragraph indents and fixing margins let alone adding other formatting. I am very confused and concerned that this keeps coming up regarding the work you do.

Do the rest of you add all this stuff to books? Cindy what are you trying to correct when adding things to scanned books? I am sorry if i sound harsh. This is email. I am simply truly confused.

E.
At 10:00 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
I didn't realize until I re-read Lissi's post after
reading Amy's answer that putting a hard return at the
end of a paragraph causes the next paragraph to have a
line space before it. When I validate I have the
margin for first line indented two spaces. Am I to
understand that that is unnecessary, and that when I
validate and find line spaces between paragraphs I
should leave them alone? I'm pretty sure that a long
time ago more people  said they actually preferred
indented paragraphs to line spaces between
paragraphs--and sometimes when there's a lot of
dialogue on the page, skipping a line between lines
and paragraphs causes the page to be longer than in
the book.

I've been doing this, as Shelley said, almost from the
beginning---for four years, anyway--and now I'm
finding out that I've been doing it all wrong? Or has
something changed in the process of upgrading?

Cindy

--- Amy Goldring
Tajalli<agoldringtajalli@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Lissi,
>
> I wish Cindy and I knew what you did when we tried
> to show the indentations in the poetry of Kipling.
> We tried everything - I say we but Cindy did most of
> the work - to get the  indentations including
> changing the margin for virtually every line which
> we wanted to indent. And I do mean Everything: One
> space . two or three or more spaces, tabs, If you
> find an answer please let me know but I cannot
> imagine you will have any more luck than we did and
> I there
>
> Now we learn that that is why everything ended up
> double-space instead of with the indentations
> Kipling used in his work which were extensive and
> meaningfull. If you download the Kipling and compare
> it to the book (paper or hardback) you  will know
> what to expect and I am sorry I could not have been
> forewarned or warned you in advance. This is all the
> more reason for a change in the Bookshare program.
>
> Amy
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:16 AM
> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation
>
>
> > Dear Cindy, Gerald, Jim,  and Everyone,
> >
> > I keep worrying that indentation bone, too.
> >
> > I understand that the tools ignore multiple spaces
> and tabs, but wonder if
> > they'd put in a single space at the beginning of a
> line after a hard return.
> >
> > For example, in a poem where every other line was
> indented we know it will
> > be double spaced because we have to use a hard
> return so lines end where
> > they are supposed to. Then, would every other line
> be a tiny bit indented if
> > it was started with a space?
> >
> > If we're not sure about this, I can test it out on
> the next really short
> > children's book I get so the experiment can be
> quickly done and quickly
> > checked.
> >
> > Today I uploaded A New History of Wales. It's
> extremely informative, but I
> > confess it's also pretty dry unless you are really
> interested in 250 pages
> > of names and dates chronicling 2500 years of
> pivotal historic episodes.
> >
> > The Book of Lost Tales, my masterwork to date, is
> almost ready, but I may be
> > changing the 3 space indents to one space indents
> depending on the answers I
> > get to this message.
> >
> > Before Saint Patrick's Day I'll also be uploading
> Emerald Magic, a terrific
> > collection of new Irish Fantasy stories for adults
> by various authors
> > including some you'll recognize like Charles De
> Lint, Andrew Greeley and
> > Tanith Lee.
> >
> > What are all of you up to? It's fun hearing what's
> in the pipe lines.
> >
> > Always with love,
> >
> > Lissi
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:31 PM
> > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving
> Indentation
> >
> >
> >> This has also been a problem with poetry. I
> learned
> >> recently about the tabs and spaces being
> eliminated,
> >> but I thought if I changed margin settings the
> >> indentations for certain verses would be
> retained. Now
> >> I find out that that isn't the case--and all
> these
> >> years I've been indenting paragraphs, which
> people
> >> said they preferred to skipping lines between
> them,
> >> and indenting quotations and such, e.g.,
> >> correspondence and newspaper articles, etc., in
> books
> >> when they appear that way in the print book, and
> just
> >> *very* recently I find out that those aren't
> retained
> >> either?
> >>
> >> Maybe when they get some more engineers something
> can
> >> be done. Really, all that would have to happen is
> that
> >> tabs be retained. Then indentation of every tupe
> would
> >> be easy.
> >>
> >> Cindy
> >>
> >> --- Gerald Hovas <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Jim,
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but Bookshare's books don't preserve
> >>> indentation.  That's probably
> >>> because they're based on XML, which, like HTML,
> is
> >>> designed to specify
> >>> structure, not formatting.  Whatever the reason,
> >>> tabs are essentially
> >>> stripped and multiple spaces are treated as a
> single
> >>> space.
> >>>
> >>> HTH
> >>>
> >>> Gerald
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
> >>> Behalf Of
> >>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:59 AM
> >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Preserving Indentation
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>> I just downloaded for validation "Beginning
> Python,"
> >>> a programming book.
> >>> Preserving indentation is essential to that
> >>> language. Is there a way for
> >>> indentation to be preserved in the approval
> process,
> >>> or am I wasting my
> >>> time making sure all the code in the book at
> least
> >>> compiles only to have it
> >>> ruined?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks.
> >>>
> >>> Jim
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> James D Homme,
> >>> Usability Engineering
> >>> Highmark Inc.
> >>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> 412-544-8177
> >>>
> >>> "If you think you can, or if you think you
> can't,
> >>> you are right."
> >>>
> >>>  To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
> Email to
> >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
> subject
> >>> line.  To get a list of
> >>> available commands, put the word 'help' by
> itself in
> >>> the subject line.
> >>>
> >>>  To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
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> >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>> put the word 'unsubscribe' by itself in the
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> >>> line.  To get a list of available commands, put
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> >>> word 'help' by itself in the subject line.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
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