[bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation

Elizabeth,

1. Books that were submitted to the system in a nonBRF format are available in DAISY and BRF. (not RTF!!!).
2. BRF submits are not strongly discouraged... they're not allowed at all.

Jake
----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


Amy anyone who wants to read braille can download the daisy, ask for the html to be unpacked, change the html to rtf and read the rtf on a notetaker with a braille display. Also braille displays hooked up to computers can read rtf files in braille. Lots of blind people prefer to read braille or prefer recordings the way some people prefer one flavor of something over another. If someone submits in a format which is not brf the book is available in daisy or rtf. If the person submits in brf the book is not available in daisy for the non-braille readers. Thus submitting in brf is strongly strongly strongly discouraged.

E.
At 03:44 AM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
Jill,

Do all blind people use Bookshare only when they can't get recordings? Or do people who cannot hold books need bookshare print or can recordings work as well. And why get braille ? People with all sorts of disabilities prefer a variety of media to choose from depending upon the message so they should have a variety to choose from, as do the able bodied & sighted community.

Is it not enough that our members need to prove that they have a disability to be able to get copyrighted material. The rest of the collection is open to anyone, even the totally able members of society, who want to use the computer to read. Now maybe someone with dislexia will be able to answer the question specifically as to his choice but should her/she really have to? I have MS and, technically, 20/30 vision. Should I have to explain why I need Bookshare books? I qualified as a member. Wasn't that enough ?

Amy
omsm
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jill O'Connell" <jillocon@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


I also have questions about the dyslexic using this site. Don't they use it primarily to listen since they have problems reading. If they could read, wouldn't they just use the print copy. I'm sure someone will correct me if I don't understand their situation.
----- Original Message ----- From: "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 7:19 AM
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving Indentation


Cindy forgive me for being blunt. I believe there have been various emails from staff over the past couple of years saying that indents, tabs, and more than one space are ignored in the daisy conversion. Somebody else please correct me if I am wrong but this is something which has been happening for bookshare's entire life. We really ought to put this in notes to volunteers to save people from doing this kind of time intensive work on files.

E.
At 02:12 AM 3/8/2007, you wrote:
E,

I don't add things to books that are not in the book.
most print books have indented paragraphs, and
occasionally, to show a change of scene or subject,
double-space between the sections. Some files that I
download have indented paragraphs just like the print
book. Others, for some reason unknown to me but
possibly explained by Lissi's post, skip lines between
paragraphs. Once a long time ago I asked what was
preferable to bookshare readers, and although some
readers, possibly who read in Braille--I don't
remember--preferred skipped lines, most preferred
indented paragraphs.

Many books that include correspondence between people,
or quoted newspaper articles, or sections from other
books, or literary quotations or poems, have those
things indented and in smaller fonts. To be true to
the printed book I put them that way and am sorry
that, from Gerald's most recent post, it seems that
those indentations have vanished.

I used to indent, both paragraphs and the other
mentioned things, but using tabs and then, when I
found out that tabs weren't retained, the space bar,
especially when I tried to line up page in tables of
contents. You posted at one point when the subject was
under discussion that yuou didn't like the spacing--I
may be remembering incorrectly but I think it was
hearing space, space, spabe, but if you read Braille
may be it was Braille. So then I discovered that I
could change the margin settings on both sides and
thus make the aforementioned indented sections that
are in print books in bookshare books, and also indent
paragraphs, without using either tabs or the space
bar--and so, if that's the case, the books are not
like print books at all. Hopefully, changing quoted
material to small print when it is that way in the
book is retained, like italics, but  who knows. And
hopefully when we get more engineers ways can be found
to retain indentations. As Amy and Lissi pointed out,
it's important in poetry, and as Jim pointed out, it's
desirable in certain manuals. Also, as has been
pointed out, bookshare serves sighted people who
cannot read normal printed books, and it would be nice
if they could see the the books as they were written,
especially poetry and drama. I don't have the patience
to attempt any drama--whoever did the Shakespeare I
commend. There were two sets of plays in the Kipling
that took some doing, and I'm really sorry if the
stage instructions and the dialog got all mushed
together.

BTW, many times books when scanned do not retain the
formatting of the print book. This is why cookbooks
are so difficult to validate--and again I applaud the
people with patience to do them; it's not just the
fractions but the ingredients, which are usually in
columns, that are misplaced. And in books I've
validated paragraphs and lines from one page appear on
a totally different page, though now that people are
being more careful with their scans and many people
are pre-validating, I haven't seen as much of that
lately.

Translating charts and tables which appear in books
also would be easier if we could use tabs. In a book
I'm helping Sharon with, I've had to "translate" the
tables and charts to lists, whereas the charts
themselves are in columns and rows, and if one could
have tabbed they would be closer to the print book and
perhaps easier to comprehend.

I hope I've answered your questions. Have fun at CSUN


Cindy



--- "E." <thoth93@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Cindy I do not understand your adding things to
> books, things like tabs,
> extra spacing, indents, margins and such.  I thought
> we are supposed to
> correct scanos not add stuff to a book.  As far as i
> can tell, a book has
> formatting in it when scanned without you adding
> paragraph indents and
> fixing margins let alone adding other formatting.  I
> am very confused and
> concerned that this keeps coming up regarding the
> work you do.
>
> Do the rest of you add all this stuff to books?
> Cindy what are you trying
> to correct when adding things to scanned books?  I
> am sorry if i sound
> harsh.  This is email.  I am simply truly confused.
>
> E.
> At 10:00 PM 3/7/2007, you wrote:
> >I didn't realize until I re-read Lissi's post after
> >reading Amy's answer that putting a hard return at
> the
> >end of a paragraph causes the next paragraph to
> have a
> >line space before it. When I validate I have the
> >margin for first line indented two spaces. Am I to
> >understand that that is unnecessary, and that when
> I
> >validate and find line spaces between paragraphs I
> >should leave them alone? I'm pretty sure that a
> long
> >time ago more people  said they actually preferred
> >indented paragraphs to line spaces between
> >paragraphs--and sometimes when there's a lot of
> >dialogue on the page, skipping a line between lines
> >and paragraphs causes the page to be longer than in
> >the book.
> >
> >I've been doing this, as Shelley said, almost from
> the
> >beginning---for four years, anyway--and now I'm
> >finding out that I've been doing it all wrong? Or
> has
> >something changed in the process of upgrading?
> >
> >Cindy
> >
> >--- Amy Goldring
> >Tajalli<agoldringtajalli@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Lissi,
> > >
> > > I wish Cindy and I knew what you did when we
> tried
> > > to show the indentations in the poetry of
> Kipling.
> > > We tried everything - I say we but Cindy did
> most of
> > > the work - to get the  indentations including
> > > changing the margin for virtually every line
> which
> > > we wanted to indent. And I do mean Everything:
> One
> > > space . two or three or more spaces, tabs, If
> you
> > > find an answer please let me know but I cannot
> > > imagine you will have any more luck than we did
> and
> > > I there
> > >
> > > Now we learn that that is why everything ended
> up
> > > double-space instead of with the indentations
> > > Kipling used in his work which were extensive
> and
> > > meaningfull. If you download the Kipling and
> compare
> > > it to the book (paper or hardback) you  will
> know
> > > what to expect and I am sorry I could not have
> been
> > > forewarned or warned you in advance. This is all
> the
> > > more reason for a change in the Bookshare
> program.
> > >
> > > Amy
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Estelnalissi" <airadil@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 12:16 AM
> > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving
> Indentation
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Cindy, Gerald, Jim,  and Everyone,
> > > >
> > > > I keep worrying that indentation bone, too.
> > > >
> > > > I understand that the tools ignore multiple
> spaces
> > > and tabs, but wonder if
> > > > they'd put in a single space at the beginning
> of a
> > > line after a hard return.
> > > >
> > > > For example, in a poem where every other line
> was
> > > indented we know it will
> > > > be double spaced because we have to use a hard
> > > return so lines end where
> > > > they are supposed to. Then, would every other
> line
> > > be a tiny bit indented if
> > > > it was started with a space?
> > > >
> > > > If we're not sure about this, I can test it
> out on
> > > the next really short
> > > > children's book I get so the experiment can be
> > > quickly done and quickly
> > > > checked.
> > > >
> > > > Today I uploaded A New History of Wales. It's
> > > extremely informative, but I
> > > > confess it's also pretty dry unless you are
> really
> > > interested in 250 pages
> > > > of names and dates chronicling 2500 years of
> > > pivotal historic episodes.
> > > >
> > > > The Book of Lost Tales, my masterwork to date,
> is
> > > almost ready, but I may be
> > > > changing the 3 space indents to one space
> indents
> > > depending on the answers I
> > > > get to this message.
> > > >
> > > > Before Saint Patrick's Day I'll also be
> uploading
> > > Emerald Magic, a terrific
> > > > collection of new Irish Fantasy stories for
> adults
> > > by various authors
> > > > including some you'll recognize like Charles
> De
> > > Lint, Andrew Greeley and
> > > > Tanith Lee.
> > > >
> > > > What are all of you up to? It's fun hearing
> what's
> > > in the pipe lines.
> > > >
> > > > Always with love,
> > > >
> > > > Lissi
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Grandma Cindy" <popularplace@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 8:31 PM
> > > > Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Preserving
> > > Indentation
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> This has also been a problem with poetry. I
> > > learned
> > > >> recently about the tabs and spaces being
> > > eliminated,
> > > >> but I thought if I changed margin settings
> the
> > > >> indentations for certain verses would be
> > > retained. Now
> > > >> I find out that that isn't the case--and all
> > > these
> > > >> years I've been indenting paragraphs, which
> > > people
> > > >> said they preferred to skipping lines between
> > > them,
> > > >> and indenting quotations and such, e.g.,
> > > >> correspondence and newspaper articles, etc.,
> in
> > > books
> > > >> when they appear that way in the print book,
> and
> > > just
> > > >> *very* recently I find out that those aren't
> > > retained
> > > >> either?
> > > >>
> > > >> Maybe when they get some more engineers
> something
> > > can
> > > >> be done. Really, all that would have to
> happen is
> > > that
> > > >> tabs be retained. Then indentation of every
> tupe
> > > would
> > > >> be easy.
> > > >>
> > > >> Cindy
> > > >>
> > > >> --- Gerald Hovas <GeraldHovas@xxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Jim,
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Sorry, but Bookshare's books don't preserve
> > > >>> indentation.  That's probably
> > > >>> because they're based on XML, which, like
> HTML,
> > > is
> > > >>> designed to specify
> > > >>> structure, not formatting.  Whatever the
> reason,
> > > >>> tabs are essentially
> > > >>> stripped and multiple spaces are treated as
> a
> > > single
> > > >>> space.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> HTH
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Gerald
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>> From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> [mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> > > >>> Behalf Of
> > > >>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 9:59 AM
> > > >>> To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Preserving
> Indentation
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Hi,
> > > >>> I just downloaded for validation "Beginning
> > > Python,"
> > > >>> a programming book.
> > > >>> Preserving indentation is essential to that
> > > >>> language. Is there a way for
> > > >>> indentation to be preserved in the approval
> > > process,
> > > >>> or am I wasting my
> > > >>> time making sure all the code in the book at
> > > least
> > > >>> compiles only to have it
> > > >>> ruined?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Thanks.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Jim
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> James D Homme,
> > > >>> Usability Engineering
> > > >>> Highmark Inc.
> > > >>> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >>> 412-544-8177
> > > >>>
> > > >>> "If you think you can, or if you think you
> > > can't,
> > > >>> you are right."
> > > >>>
> > > >>>  To unsubscribe from this list send a blank
> > > Email to
> > > >>> bksvol-discuss-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
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