[bksvol-discuss] Re: Categories again
- From: "Kim Friedman" <kimfri11@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 20:16:52 -0800
Hi, I'm sorry but I didn't see a signature to your message. I suppose I am
most likely in agreement with you because if the alternate history story
involves a technical reason for the split or sidetrack in history, I'd tend
to regard it as sf. If there is a magic-works universe, I'd tend to think of
it as fantasy. I suppose you'd class the Lord Darcy stories by Randall
Garrett as mystery fantasy stories? Have you read any of Robert Silverberg's
Roma Eterna series? I think he posits a Roman Empire that never fell. I
tend to like the alternate history story as I like to see what the author
makes of the society which results from the change of a historical event. Be
that said, I see a lot of stuff by Harry Turtledove involving alternate
societies wherein the South won the Civil War, or aliens come down to try
and conquer Earth during World War II. I think he is really plumbing a lot
of alternate realities to write alternate war stories. I really don't wish
to read a surfeit of this even though the writing might be good. I haven't
read much military fiction or techno-thrillers, although I might read some
when I feel up to it. Regards, Kim Friedman.
-----Original Message-----
From: bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:bksvol-discuss-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Roger Loran Bailey
(Redacted sender "rogerbailey81@xxxxxxx" for DMARC)
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 7:14 PM
To: bksvol-discuss@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [bksvol-discuss] Re: Categories again
Kim, you are referring to a message from me, but you are not remembering it
correctly. First, I did not say that alternate history should not be placed
in the science fiction category. That is exactly where it is commonly placed
right now in virtually all classification systems and I do not necessarily
disagree, at least not yet. What I was talking about was the evolution and
origins of the concept of literary genre. It has been suggested that
alternate history should become a genre itself and I agree. That would not
apply to the examples you give. They are science fiction. My argument deals
with the definition of science fiction that I offered earlier. That is, that
a science fiction story is one that implicitly asks the question of what if
and the word if is followed by a fantastic supposition and that a fantastic
supposition is a situation that no human has ever encountered. The science
fiction story assumes within its own context that the fantastic supposition
is a manifestation of reality as opposed to a manifestation of the
supernatural which is the case for fantasy. If the alternate history
involves magic or supernatural beings to effect the alternative then it is
fantasy and if it involves time travel or multiple universes or something
like that which is a fantastic supposition assumed within the context of the
story to be a manifestation of reality it is science fiction. Simply
positing that history took a slightly different turn that resulted in a
different history that serves as the background of a story is not a
fantastic supposition though. I remember a piece of graffiti during the
Vietnam war that read: Withdrawal, that's what Richard Nixon's father should
have done. If Richard Nixon's father had done exactly that at the time that
Richard Nixon was conceived then history would have been different.
It is not a fantastic supposition because we are right now living in a world
with a history that has been shaped by very many people not being born who
could have been born and many people who do and have existed who might not
have been born. A story that took place in modern day America that had no
Richard Nixon in its history would be an alternate history story. If
fantastic suppositions were inserted then it might be a science fiction
story or a fantasy story depending on the nature of the fantastic
suppositions, but without them that is highly questionable. Right now,
though, alternate history fiction has not spun off as a genre of its own. It
would take more than Bookshare creating a category for it too. In fact, a
category for alternate history would be a very small category because there
are so few such stories and that is something that probably has a lot to do
with its not having spun off as its own genre. If it becomes popular enough
it probably will become a genre of its own someday, but for now it is only a
subgenre of science fiction. It seems like a stretch to me, but I suppose
that the fictional history itself is considered to be the fantastic
supposition.
Nevertheless, it is speculative fiction in the most literal sense.
On 12/29/2014 7:53 PM, Kim Friedman wrote:
> Hi, I don't know who suggested that alternate history novels shouldn't
> be put in the science fiction category. I can understand why the
> sender might think this; however, I'd say the alternate probability
> universe story's primary duty is to deal with the "what-if" question;
> i.e., what if the south had won the Civil War. Or what if society were
> split along gender lines after a disaster? What would the societies be
> like and how would men and women react? There was a series of books by
> Suzy McKee Charnas which dealt with this as well as Sherri Tepper's
> book The Gate to Women's Country. And where would you put Octavia E.
> Butler's Patternist series? You have apparently human entities that
> live for thousands of years before life-stretching medical technology
> or nanotech possited by authors. So I would say that sf does deal with
> extrapolated reality based on possible or impossible future or
> present-day tech, it doesn't always perform in that way. Robert
> Sawyer's Hominid series deals with revival of what were Neanderthal
> humans which we can't do now. Although I grant you that Alternate
> Probability Universe stories may sound fantastic if you think there's
> such a thing as a multiverse and if one could actually do a kind of
> time travel, I wouldn't class this as fantasy because there is the
> possibility of a technology which may allow for that. Where would you
> place H. G. Wells' Time Machine? Would you call that sf or fantasy? I
> think of it as a kind of morality tale in the sf category because
> Wells is imagining what a far future society would be like given the
> society of his day. Harry Turtledove has stories where humans
> encounter saber-toothed tigers and hominids which they call sims. To
> me, this is alternate probability stories in the science fiction
> category. If you see something like The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump
> by the same author, that's definitely fantasy because the protagonist
> is living in a magic-works universe. Besides, what do you make of
> Arthor C. Clarke's remark that future technology would appear to be like
magic to people in the past? Where would you place Gene Wolfe's series Book
of the New Sun and Book of the Long Sun? Regards, Kim Friedman.
>
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