[argyllcms] Re: AW: Re: Create RGB printer .ICM to use in Photoshop CS5
- From: Wim Hertog <nertog@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: argyllcms@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 12:15:34 +0200
No worries Phil,
I'll check all this tonight and post the measurement files and profiles.
Thanks for all the advice!
2011/10/20 Phil Cruse <pcruse@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Hi Wim,
> Sorry I got your name mixed up with someone else I was emailing on my last
> reply!
>
> To add to Vladimir's excellent advice:
>
> In X-Rite's free ColorPort utility you can make grey scales/colour charts,
> of any flavour. I do this before profiling to evaluate new paper types for
> density range and saturation, etc. This will show what your printer is
> capable of. Apply sRGB but Print with CM OFF.
>
> Printing another version with PS CM with your profile would test if
> something is wrong.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil
> Phil Cruse
>
> http://www.colourphil.co.uk
>
>
>
> On 20 Oct 2011, at 10:53, Vladimir Gajic wrote:
>
> > Hmmm. In that case it´s quite possible that you have a problem with
> > your printer driver and/or the colour management setup in Windows (as
> > Phil sugested). Do the folowing:
> >
> > 1. Create a simple RGB stepwedge using CMY and gray. Use 5% steps.
> > 2. Print the stepwedge turning any colour management options off. Dont
> > profile in PS or similar
> > 3. Evaluate the stepwedge and, if possible give us some feedback
> > 4. The colors on your printed wedge should be quite good distributed
> > and all tonal values should be visible. If that is not the case,
> > calibrating and profiling can´t produce a good result.
> > 5. The next step would be changing the Win7 colour-settings (Phil).
> > Another way of getting a even distributed stepwedge without colour
> > management is to apply sRGB (not convert!) to the stepwedge before
> > printing. Telling this because I had a similar problem on a Mac
> > running OS 10.5 and a canon printer driver.
> >
> > Could you post a version of your profile?
> >
> > Regards
> > Vladimir
> >
> >
> > 2011/10/20 Wim Hertog <nertog@xxxxxxxxx>:
> >> Vladimir,
> >>
> >> Thanks for that info. It does seem easier to just recalibrate.
> >>
> >> What i don't understand is why my RGB profile by itself, without the
> >> calibration gives such awful results. I'm not talking about subtle
> shifts in
> >> colour...I mean a horrible yellow-brown image with totally wrong shadows
> and
> >> highlights.
> >>
> >> Commercial packages that can only do profiling and no calibration do
> manage
> >> to make my prints look like on my calibrated monitor. Of course
> greyscale
> >> linearity is not good, but at least the colours match and shadows are
> >> correct.
> >>
> >> Wim
> >>
> >> 2011/10/20 Vladimir Gajic <vgajic67@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Wim,
> >>>
> >>> this is correct but you have to realise that commercial profile
> >>> packages don´t offer a calibration procedure at all. That is because
> >>> the vendors in most cases asume that their products will be used in a
> >>> professional production environment. That means that output devices
> >>> are driven by software that offers a calibration utility. This is IMHO
> >>> also the reason why for home-printers this solutions are worthless.
> >>>
> >>> When you create a profile as I described, apply the profile using
> >>> Photoshops Convert to profile utility, Photoshop simply converts your
> >>> RGB image to your RGB-profile compensating the visual shift, or
> >>> keeping the images original look. At this step you could apply
> >>> softproofing by creating an apropriate setup. This ist basicaly the
> >>> way profiling in PS works. Applying the calibration curve changes the
> >>> image because PS can´t compensate the curve-behavior. This what you
> >>> get is the image "how your calibrated printer need´s it" in order to
> >>> produce the correct result.
> >>>
> >>> A workarround for softproofing (or checking the quality) could be:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Open your original RGB-image
> >>> 2. Create a softproof-setup with your argyll-profile and apply it to
> >>> the image. Create a copy and open it in PS
> >>> 3. Convert to your output profile, apply the calibration curve and
> print
> >>> 4. Compare the print to the softproof-image. The results should be
> >>> very close to each other. if not -you may have a problem with your
> >>> monitor profile.
> >>>
> >>> OK. The whole process may be confusing in the begining. But, the first
> >>> serious colour-shift will convince you very fast of it´s advantage.
> >>> It´s faster, easiser and cheaper to create a new printer calibration,
> >>> than creating a new profile from scratch.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>> Vladimir
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 2011/10/20 Wim Hertog <nertog@xxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>> Hi Vladimir,
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm a bit confused now. Alan just wrote that he only profiles his
> Epson
> >>>> 3880
> >>>> and after that his prints match his calibrated monitor. My experience
> is
> >>>> that the profile just characterizes the printer but does not change
> the
> >>>> way
> >>>> it prints, in other words, it can not match print to monitor. Am I
> wrong
> >>>> in
> >>>> this?
> >>>>
> >>>> The process you described is what I did and I have the same results.
> >>>> After
> >>>> the extra step of applying the correction curves (either in the
> profile
> >>>> or
> >>>> as a PS curve) the whole image changes but prints quite ok.
> >>>>
> >>>> In every other profiling package however, I can match my print to
> >>>> monitor
> >>>> using just 1 step: converting to the printer profile. This profile
> >>>> includes
> >>>> the correction curves and applies them without making the softproof in
> >>>> PS
> >>>> unuseable. In other words: 1 confusing step less when printing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Could you clarify this a bit for me?
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Wim
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2011/10/20 Vladimir Gajic <vgajic67@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi Wim,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> the Idea of calibrating the printer before building a profile is
> simply
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> keep your device in a constant printing condition. The process could
> >>>>> also
> >>>>> look like this:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. You create a printer calibration witch results in a .cal-file.
> >>>>> During
> >>>>> the calibration process you also can create a Photoshop curve, witch
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> illustrate the whole procedure IMHO mutch better
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. You generate a RGB-target for your profile, applying the .cal you
> >>>>> created in the previous step. You also can skip adding the .cal using
> >>>>> printarg, simply open the file in PS and apply the generated PS-curve
> >>>>> BEFORE
> >>>>> printing the file.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Generate the profile
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. The printing process could look like this:
> >>>>> - open your image and convert to the device profile. You will notice
> >>>>> that
> >>>>> the image looks correct. This is also your softproof.
> >>>>> -now apply your curve. The image changes in a strange way, but will
> be
> >>>>> printed correctly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Idea behind: profile once, calibrate many.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Your printer may change in time. Any cartrige replacement, even if
> you
> >>>>> are
> >>>>> using original inks, can produce colour shifts. The same applies to
> the
> >>>>> substrates you are using. In that case it's enough to recalibrate
> your
> >>>>> printer generating a new .cal and PS-curve.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There are also different ways to work with an calibrated workflow
> (e.g.
> >>>>> applying .cal using cctiff, or linking the .cal directly to the
> >>>>> profile).
> >>>>> Anyway, the described procedure was for me a good starting point for
> >>>>> understanding the whole stuff.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hope this helps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers
> >>>>> Vladimir
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -- Gesendet von meinem Palm Pre
> >>>>> ________________________________
> >>>>> Wim Hertog <nertog@xxxxxxxxx> schrieb am 20.10.2011 10:02:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hmm, so the profiling step alone should do the trick then? I thought
> >>>>> profiling only characterized the printer and you needed the
> calibration
> >>>>> step
> >>>>> in order to actually change the printing behaviour. If the profiling
> >>>>> step by
> >>>>> itself is enough to create prints matching my (with argyll)
> calibrated
> >>>>> monitor, I must be doing something wrong somewhere...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After following the tutorial and profiling the printer the gamut
> shape
> >>>>> and
> >>>>> softproof look perfect. Very similar to what I get from PM5. The
> >>>>> printout
> >>>>> using this profile results in a horrible yellow-brown cast though. I
> >>>>> follow
> >>>>> my usual workflow while printing: windows CM is turned off in the
> canon
> >>>>> driver and photoshop manages colours using the generated profile. I'm
> >>>>> pretty
> >>>>> sure it's not double profiling anywhere.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I must be doing something wrong somewhere but I literally read the
> >>>>> tutorial a 100 times and tried everything and always get the same
> >>>>> result: a
> >>>>> strong yellow brown cast together with totally blocked shadows.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Anyone has any idea what's happening or....a link to another tutorial
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> double check?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Wim
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2011/10/20 Graeme Gill <graeme@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Wim Hertog wrote:
> >>>>>>> Now, the above workflow results in some strange outcomes: the
> >>>>>>> colours
> >>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>> the softproof in photoshop are completely off (the same happens
> when
> >>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>> convert to above generated icc file). The image prints ok (ok
> >>>>>>> doesn't
> >>>>>>> mean as good as I want though), nothing like the softproof shows.
> >>>>>>> However, when I don't add the .cal file to the icm (last step), the
> >>>>>>> softproof is perfect but the actual printed image is horribly wrong
> >>>>>> As suggested in the tutorial, get just profiling working first.
> There
> >>>>>> are too many variable otherwise, and the first thing you do in
> >>>>>> diagnosing
> >>>>>> a problem is break things down into individual steps anyway.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Graeme Gill.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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