[amc] Re: Jesus and Jihad
- From: "Ray Gingerich" <RGingerich@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "Austin Mennonite Church" <amc@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:31:48 -0500
Steve and Nevitt,
I think this is a very important issue we are discussing. I suppose it might be
better discussed over coffee, but not everybody that is reading this would have
access to the conversation, thus, I don't want to diminish this forum or this
opportunity.
First, what is my source of truth? I embrace the Mennonite (and NT notion) that
it is not only scripture, but also the community (past and present), and "the
still small voice" (some would label this God's spirit. " Once accessed, truth
must meet the "Love of God" test. And, I agree with Paul that "we see through a
glass darkly." Thus, "my truth" is pretty tentative, because it depends on
"your truth" and the hard-to-know-for-sure truth of God.
I already "messed with" the "truth" of our Menno forbears a bit above by not
adding "of believers" to "community." Why? Because Jesus is quoted as saying to
his enemies (Pharisees) (not to his disciples) that "the kingdom of God is
within you." I believe that. I believe that I have encountered God (profound
good and truth) in the most unlikely of people, sometimes from offenders who
have committed heinous crimes.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the greater the distance (in
time) the gospel writers are from Jesus, the more parochial Jesus' message
becomes. In the synoptic gospels, Jesus makes no claims for himself. In Mark
and Matthew, when Peter asks who he is, he answers, "whom do ye say that I am?"
Fifty years later, John is quoting Jesus as making all kinds of claims for
himself. Paul's letters were written before any of the Gospels and he says
Jesus made no clamis for himself. Jesus makes the hated Samritan the hero of
his neighbor-parable.
Conversely, among what "group " can you find the perpetration of more evil than
among those who classify themselves as Christians, Hitler among them.
So, if the kingdom of God is within Jesus' enemies, and the perpetration of
evil is never more manifest than it is among Christians, why do I choose to
seek truth with a motley bunch of people identifying themselves as Austin
Mennonite Church--a "Christian community?" BECAUSE, I FIND THEM HONEST AND
HUMBLE SEEKERS of truth, not arrogant proclaimers of knowing or having the
truth. (Holly's recent painful, yet beautiful message and the responses are for
me evidence of humble searching).
I think most of us believe that Jesus manifests God most perfectly and that he
is our moral example. Yet, he doesn't give us easy answers--his answers are
often questions (e.g., "whom do ye say that I am?") or paradoxical parables.
What seems most clear to us in the Mennonite tradition is his love ethic, yet,
even that is difficult for us to discern in our time, case by case.
Furthermore, the biblical Jesus is not the "happy Christian" that it seems most
"evangelicals" suggest we should be. The Jesus I read about was in constant
conflict with the societal norm of his day, he wept over Jerusalem, the City of
God for Jews, his disciples don't "get" his message, even at the end (Peter is
still into coercive violence), and after asking why God has forsaken him, he
ends up on a cross. I find most "happy in the Lord" Christians, people who
won't get involved in a conversation like we are having here. The "happiness"
introduction to the Sermon on the Mount (commonly known as the
Beattitudes--i.e., "Happy is the person..."), if read critically rather than
superficially, are filled with suffering and pain, yet, paradoxically,
happiness.
For me, the ultimate paradox is in Jesus rejection of the temptation to
political (coercive) power, "bow down and worship me (the devil) and you shall
have dominion over all of the kingdoms of this world." When Jesus describes his
life of rejection and suffering and Peter rebukes him (same temptation), Jesus
calls Peter "Satan." (this immediately follows Peter's confession, "you are
Christ.") My interpretation: Peter's conception of christ was the triumphal
christ (later Paul's) to whom every tongue should confess and every knee should
bow. Jesus calls those (Peter and by implication, also Paul) Satan, because
they are offering the same temptation as the devil did in the wilderness. For
those of you who missed Sunday's sermon at SCC, Michele Hershberger implied
that those who yield to the temptation to political (coercive) power and reject
the way of the cross are devil worshippers (alluding to "bow down and worship
me and you shall have dominion..."). Jesus chose not to impose goodness but to
model it. He suffers the cross for that choice. He does not coerce us, but
invites us to make the same choice. It is not a "once and for all" choice, but
a choice we make throughout our lives.
Why do I choose you as my support group? Because, we are covenanted to support
each other in making the tough choice and to suffer the cross with each other.
We confess that we are too often Peter, the temptor and not often enough Peter,
the follower who ends up on a cross himself. We are both, aspiring to the
courage to reject the former and embrace the latter.
So, it is because that you are those who seek, those who suffer, those who
struggle, and those whose answers are tentative and temporary that I am drawn
to you, feel at home with you and love you. Paradoxically, it is in the midst
of this pain and struggle that I experience the comfort of grace and a deep joy
and a peace that passes understanding.
Ray
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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"There is no way to peace; peace is the way." A. J. Muste
----- Original Message -----
From: Nevitt D.Reesor
To: Austin Mennonite Church
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 8:42 AM
Subject: [amc] Re: Jesus and Jihad
Steve, et al,
I wonder if God frequently works (as powerfully) through those who profess no
faith of any kind as through those who profess to believe in certain doctrines,
have uttered the correct formula, and belong to an accredited religious
organization?
Nevitt
On Jul 20, 2004, at 8:06 AM, Stephen Hochstetler wrote:
Nevitt,
I think that this thread may be one of those best done with a coffee in
hand or over a meal, or even 2. I have pulled in two specific sections of each
note below.
From your note:
>So, I am also skeptical that religious faith is an essential component
>of "authentic" love or love-in-action. I suspect there are a great
>number of humanists that exhibit love every bit as authentic as the
>most loving Christians, and if they don't outnumber the Christians they
>probably will some day.
From my note:
>I think that without God you
> can be a good or bad person by choice, that you can be a loving person
> or not by choice, but all that you offer is what is inside you. You
> can be a very loving person, but if you don't believe in God, I don't
> think you are sharing God's love. Us humans have a hugh capacity to
> love, but it is not infinite like God's.
Response:
I did not mean to say that love from a non-Christian is not authentic.
Maybe my mistake was saying that if you don't believe in God, you are not
sharing God's love. I could see how you interpret that as not authentic. With
more thought I would change my words to say, if you don't believe in God, you
don't have access to God's infinite love to handle situations that are beyond
what we can normally handle. Some people have been given a larger portion of
love than others when they are born. That is why I said that some people are
more loving. We do all have our limits and I have faith as a believer that we
have potential to go beyond our own personal limits when God intervenes. This
does not mean that all who profess to be believers do that on a daily basis. At
any given time all of us have a temptation to rely on ourselves instead of God.
If you are a humanist, than you only have yourself to rely on.
I think that just as God gives you specific gifts and talents when you are
born, that this happens again when you choose to follow God. No one receives
the same portion of gifts and talents or capacity to love. However, I do have
faith that I can call upon God when my limits have been reached.
steve
Stephen Hochstetler shochste@xxxxxxxxxx
International Technical Support Organization at IBM
Office - 512-838-6198 (t/l 678) FAX - 512-838-6931
http://www.redbooks.ibm.com
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