Nevitt & Ray, Interesting discussions for us 'listening' people. From reading the notes...yes I actually have been reading the whole thing...whew, I think there is one piece of the puzzle missing. In all your discussions you assume the conversation is between those with faith trying to convince those without faith to change. What is missing from all this discussion is what part God plays. We have stories in the bible of God stepping in and changing people's lives by having a direct relationship with them. It would expect that if we asked among our community at AMC, we would find experiences where God has stepped into our own lives and made a difference. Does God only work in lives of those with faith? Looking in the bible, we could say that Paul was one example where God intervened before Paul was faithful. My faith does not bring about social change, but my faith tells me that God can bring about social change using people or any other resource, including just changing the hearts of those in power. (Paul, as example again) For all of us both at AMC and elsewhere, I just pray that we will recognize and acknowledge when we hear the voice of God in our own lives . It certainly does not mean that we become perfect at that time, or that we stop struggling our normal daily struggles, or that we stop using reason in our discussions. I would hope though that in building that one-on-one relation with God gives us a strong foundation to build our lives. Stephen Hochstetler shochste@xxxxxxxxxx International Technical Support Organization at IBM Office - 512-838-6198 (t/l 678) FAX - 512-838-6931 http://www.redbooks.ibm.com