[tinwhiskers] Re: R: Re: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: IPC expresses concerns on possible ROHS revisions
- From: "Bob Landman" <rlandman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:50:03 -0400
Gabriele,
It's incredible (but so predictable).
Thanks for sharing this.
Bob
From: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Gabriele Sala
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:58 AM
To: tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'John Burke'
Subject: [tinwhiskers] R: Re: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: IPC expresses concerns
on possible ROHS revisions
From TECHNET Archives (Sep 2007)
Best Regards
Gabriele
http://listserv.ipc.org/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0709&L=technet&D=0&T=0&P=28231
Subject:Re: Lead-Free Warranty
From:stephengregory5849 <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, stephengregory5849 <[log in
to unmask]>
Date:Mon, 17 Sep 2007 21:41:22 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
While the assemblies that we build aren't ours, we still warranty what we build
the same whether it's lead-free or not. Our standard warranty is 1-year for
workmanship defects.
You want to see what Microsoft's interim fix for the xbox "Red Rings of Death"
is? Here's a photo of the system board prior to the issue:
http://tinyurl.com/ywskzr
Now here's a picture of the system board after their fix:
http://tinyurl.com/242zhj
You'll notice that they've epoxied the CPU and GPU down to the PCB in a attempt
to prevent the BGA solder joints from fracturing when the xbox is powered
(heated) up:
http://tinyurl.com/22jam7
http://tinyurl.com/2het2u
Makes me want to go right out and buy one.
You have to remember, there's a reason why this stuff is considered Class-1
electronics...it only has to work once.
Steve
Da: tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tinwhiskers-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Per conto di John Burke
Inviato: lunedì 11 agosto 2008 16.44
A: 'John Burke'; RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A. (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Oggetto: [tinwhiskers] Re: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: IPC expresses concerns on
possible ROHS revisions
OK got to go, did a fast search look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_problems
Quote from above:
The game console heats up during use, and given enough time, the temperature
inside can reach very high levels due to insufficient cooling. Because of the
way the Xbox 360 is constructed, this may result in stresses building up
between the delicate ball grid array solder joints of the CPU and GPU and the
motherboard, causing them to break. The problem is exacerbated by the specific
type of lead-free solder used, a type which is more brittle than the older
tin/lead solder that was used in the past and the GPU's location directly
underneath the DVD drive. [28]
German computer magazine c't, in an article titled "Jede dritte stirbt den
Hitzetod" (every third one dies of heat), published in July 2006, blames the
problems primarily on the use of the wrong type of lead-free solder, a type
that when exposed to elevated temperatures for extended periods of time becomes
brittle and can develop hair-line cracks that are almost irreparable.[
John Burke
(408) 515 4992
From: John Burke [mailto:john@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 7:33 AM
To: 'RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx'; 'tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'; 'Henning
Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A. (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Subject: RE: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses concerns
on possible ROHS revisions
The solder joints were indeed overstressed due to thermal expansion/contraction
of the chip leading to early fatiguing of the joints. I saw photographs of the
?fix? which entailed re-soldering the chip and then applying epoxy to the
corners to mechanically hold the GPU to the board and mechanically constrain it.
I do not have time to look up the photographs which were at the time put on
line as I have to go into hospital for about a week but if anyone on this link
has the web links put on line at the time about 2 years ago please post them
otherwise I will search them when I get out (If they let me out?..8-(
John
John Burke
(408) 515 4992
From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Klaus Reindl
Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 11:32 PM
To: 'John Burke'; RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A. (GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Subject: AW: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses concerns
on possible ROHS revisions
Dear John,
since I still have connections to several former RoHS workgroups
(German ZVEI and several automotive Tier 1 suppliers), I would be very
interested in specifics
of the Xbox 360 casus.
I only have heard and read very general info?one was that a processor was
?thermally overstressed due to
a board design flaw?.
But the source of this info can be ranked close to rumour.
So, if you have proven facts, please disseminate them.
Thanks a lot, nice week and kind regards,
Klaus
Von: John Burke [mailto:john@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Gesendet: Sonntag, 10. August 2008 23:10
An: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
klaus-reindl@xxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A.
(GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Betreff: [!! SPAM] RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses
concerns on possible ROHS revisions
Interesting comment ? apologies for the late reply but I have been travelling.
Unexpected catastrophe? I guess that 3.5 billion dollars that had to be
reserved by Microsoft as a result of all of it?s Xbox 360 processors being
unreliable due to lead free could be cataloged under that heading??
John Burke
(408) 515 4992
From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Bob Landman
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 9:56 AM
To: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; tinwhiskers@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
klaus-reindl@xxxxxxxxxxx; 'Henning Leidecker'; 'Brusse, Jay A.
(GSFC-560.0)[QSS]'
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Subject: RE: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses concerns on
possible ROHS revisions
Dear Klaus,
Thank you for your kind comments. I noted that you said that
"the bulk of the transition to Pb-free is or will be done. So far, we have not
heard of an unexpected catastrophe?"
I would remind everyone that there have been some well documented failures,
including at nuclear power plants. See
http://nepp.nasa.gov/WHISKER/failures/index.htm and this website is always
being updated with new facts of failures.
The problem is that NASA knows of many failures but are not permitted to share
them all as the manufacturers and military/aerospace agencies who come to them
for help and failure analysis, forbid them to disclose the problems.
What manufacturer wants to wash it's dirty laundry in public?
So, how will we know of these failures? Will Sony and Toshiba and Philips and
Siemens tell us? Or will the products that fail, fail intermittantly, fail and
be thrown away in some landfill (not recycled)? Isn't this more likely to
happen since we have had failures and there is no lead free solder that
prohibits whiskers (and yes, even lead solders have very tiny (5 micron
gnarly)whiskers, I know that).
So, how many failures does it take to convince the EU they have made a terrible
mistake?
Inquiring minds would certainly like to know where that trip point is! 100?
1000? 10,000? A million? Do they care at all?
Bob Landman, President
Senior Member, IEEE PES
H&L Instruments, LLC
34 Post Road, PO Box 580
North Hampton, NH 03862-0580
(tel) 603-964-1818 (fax) 603-964-8881
www.hlinstruments.com
________________________________
From: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx On Behalf Of Klaus Reindl
Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2008 2:46 AM
To: RoHSUSAPushback@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: 'SMART Group smart-e-link'; '(Leadfree Electronics Assembly Forum)';
'TechNet E-Mail Forum'
Subject: AW: AW: [RoHSUSAPushback] FW: [tinwhiskers] IPC expresses concerns on
possible ROHS revisions
Bob,
thank you for your valuable inputs.
For European manufacturers they may look a bit biased, given that the RoSH
legislation has been put in practice pretty much.
For the US, it may be a well-balanced view, since (in my view), RoHS has not at
all found broad acceptance in the US.
Of course, also in Europe the Pandora?s box of problems with the main
replacement for the eutectic PbSn solder system?Sn outerleads plating and SAC
or doped SnCu solders are known: Poorer wettability, poorer reliability under
slow dT/dt excursions, lower performance in drop tets, Sn whiskers on
non-soldered, Sn plated Cu or Alloy 42 lead surfaces.
In order to eliminate or at least decrease those problems, many measures, based
on material sciences, have been introduced on the component and board
soldering sides.
But as you state, the problems could not be solved completely yet. Especially
the Sn whisker issue is still open. The whisker stress tests ?called
accelerating, without any acceleration factor being known?are more of a
pacifier for worried moods rather than a scientifically based approach.
By the way, Sn whiskers also were reported with eutectic SnPb plating and
soilders, albeit on a much lower scale.
But it is fruitless to again and again scrape in open wounds.
At least here in Europe and in Japan and soon in China and Korea and California
(to name a few), the bulk of the transition to Pb-free is or will be done.
So far, we have not heard of an unexpected catastrophe?
It only leaves us engineers to stay vigilant, in order to avoid more regulation
without valid physics background, being enforced on the industry.
Best regards,
Klaus Reindl
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