[thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
- From: "Michael Ray" <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 22:23:22 +0100
When I download it and have a play I will definitely be a new user.
I think because I've not been blind enough to need a screen-reader for very
long I am still adjusting to some extent. I think I struggle a bit with
things I have no 'visual memory' of. That's why I am an XP dinosaur and
haven't got my feet wet with 7 yet. I have to admit when I installed
Thunderbird last night I was a bit overwhelmed by the complexity of it. I
will crack it though with my trusty trio of screen-readers.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Wilson-Hinds" <roger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 9:15 PM
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
And I will play my part in telling you what I want to do with Spotify. I
will pretend to be a new user.
Roger.
-----Original Message-----
From: thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Michael Ray
Sent: 13 September 2010 09:53
To: thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
Hello Roger.
I understand what you mean but you did say you wanted a tidy script. Sigh,
users :-)
Ann, my wife, (a programme manager and not a techie) moans like crazy about
software developers never delivering what the users want. I usually respond
by telling her the users never know what they want and hence never specify
closely enough :-)
I'll install spotify myself and have a look at what Thunder does already and
see if I can expand on it.
It's too early on a Monday morning to think about it right now :-)
Regards
Mike
Edinburgh UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Wilson-Hinds" <roger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 9:31 AM
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
OK. You get to keep your street cred. But...
Most Thunder users are not power users like you and sege etc. They, like me,
want to actually enjoy Spotify and the rest from the keyboard with some kind
of synth feedback when they press keys. Ie Searching for an artist or song,
choosing a track, stopping and starting it, and the rest. This is what a
script can do for a blind not-techy user like me.
There is a Skype script, for instance, which seems to work really well for
me but maybe there are Skype things I don't get to hear or don't know about.
Let's stick with Spotify for now, though. You are on the right lines.
Thanks.
Roger.
-----Original Message-----
From: thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Michael Ray
Sent: 13 September 2010 01:52
To: thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
Hello Serge.
Thanks for this. Give me a short while to see what transpires and if I come
up with a few bits and pieces it might be a good idea to use your version
control space.
Regards
Mike
Edinburgh UK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Serge Tumanyan" <SLTumanyan@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 10:32 PM
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
Hello, Michael.
If you want to work under version control, I have a special space on
www.assembla.com used to work on scripts for Thunder and can deliver a
subversion or Git repository to you there.
Please let me know if needed and I shall provide it to you.
Thank you.
Serge.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Ray" <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 1:08 AM
Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
> Roger,
> Not sure if I can attach files to emails to the list. So if the
> attachment
> got stripped, this should probably do it assuming the app in question is
> just called 'spotify' and by 'tidy' you mean maximising the window on
> load.
> Either put the attached spotify.lsc in your Thunder installation alongside
> the other scripts or use Notepad to create a file in the same place with
> the
> same name and containing the following 5 lines of code. But I think you
> know that :-)
>
>
> Sub EventLoaded()
> say "Spotify Script Initialized"
> TidyWindow
> DealtWith = TRUE
> End Sub
>
>
> Wow I think I need a lie down after that mammoth programming solution. If
> it doesn't work bang goes my street cred in one hit (smile).
>
> Regards
> Mike
> Edinburgh UK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Wilson-Hinds" <roger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2010 8:46 PM
> Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
>
>
> Thanks, Al and Mike.
>
> Hopefully, Mike, listers will come up with stuff they want scripting.
> Something straightforward to give you a fair start. (smile).
>
> I love music and a thing called Spotify. A tidy script here for Thunder
> would make me and others pretty happy.
>
> Good luck and thanks.
>
> Roger.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> Behalf Of Alasdair King
> Sent: 11 September 2010 11:24
> To: thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
>
> Mike, you may also want:
>
> The unofficial Thunder Manual, written by me. Bear in mind I'm
> sighted, but I know how it works. It's suitable for techy types trying
> to use a screenreader.
> http://download.webbie.org.uk/Thunder/Unofficial%20Thunder%20Manual.doc
>
> The Thunder Scripting Manual. You'll have to understand the difference
> between types of cursor and a bit about MSAA to be able to write
> scripts. It's not for the faint-hearted. Or to put it another way, in
> five years only one guy has ever written any scripts. But then, I'm
> not sure how many people actually write NVDA code either!
>
http://download.webbie.org.uk/Thunder%20Scripting%20Manual%202009%20July%203
> 1.doc
>
> NVDA is Python, the Thunder scripts are VBScript. I don't know how
> accessible the Python IDE is, but since two blind guys do the NVDA
> development it must be possible! The Thunder VBScripts you can do in
> Notepad++ or your favourite text editor. Install them both and have a
> play. You'll probably find each is better in different circumstances -
> NVDA is good in Firefox, and Thunder is good in Word, for example.
>
> Windows Vista and 7 come with the very nice Microsoft Anna voice, who
> although American is also high quality. That's one of the reasons, I
> think, the Thunder project is quite relaxed about which voices are on
> the machine. Also, everyone seems to have RealSpeak voices floating
> around. There are also some useful extra shortcuts in Vista/7, and the
> screen magnifier in 7 is really pretty good - I'd suggest checking it
> out if you're still on XP.
>
> Finally, on performance. First, the voice you're using is a major
> factor. SAPI5 voices are slower because of the SAPI5 interface.
> Second, the speed of your screenreader is often a reflection of the
> performance of the underlying application and its response time -
> you'll find that your screenreader can hang if the application its
> trying to read chokes. Finally, different screenreaders have different
> approaches, and there is a trade-off between performance and ability.
> Someone upthread wrote that NVDA was faster but didn't read some text,
> but Thunder was slower but did read it - that's exactly the kind of
> trade-off you'd expect. If you want the maximum performance possible
> with a SAPI5 voice then use Narrator and Microsoft Sam!
>
> Best wishes,
> Alasdair King
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Michael Ray <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>> Hello Roger.
>>
>> I'd be happy to do what I can for Thunder scripting.
>>
>> In the 20 years I've been programming I've written in COBOL, Clipper, MS
>> Access, Visual Basic, C, C++ and Perl. I've also dabbled with Python and
>> Lua.
>>
>> I knoe VB and VBScript are not really the same thing although the syntax
> is
>> very similar.
>>
>> My most recent activities have been writing command and control systems
> for
>> French railways in C under Windows and that has involved a lot of API
> stuff.
>>
>> I'm better with a specific task rather than scrabbling about looking for
>> something to improve.
>>
>> I should warn you though I'm stuck in the world of Windows XP. I've
> avoided
>> Vista (shudder), and don't have any visual memory of 7 so as a newbie to
>> accessibility tools I have found what little exposure I've had to 7 has
> been
>> traumatic.
>>
>> Beats me why they have to fiddle about with the UI so much. It's like
> going
>> to Tesco to find they've moved everything around for no other reason than
> to
>> make you spend more money :-)
>>
>> Regards
>> Mike
>> Edinburgh UK
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roger Wilson-Hinds" <roger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:43 AM
>> Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
>>
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Just a plug first. We do need programming experience - Thunder Visual
> Basic
>> scripts.
>>
>> But to answer your question: There are lots of blind or VI techy lists.
> BCAB
>> might be a good start:
>>
>> http://www.bcab.org.uk/
>>
>> Their membership includes some very experienced operators. I can't
>> understand much of the stuff so I am not currently a member of the list
>> although I am a life member of the organisation.
>>
>> There are loads of American lists and cooperatives too. Try AccessWorld
> for
>> starters:
>>
>> http://www.afb.org/aw/main.asp
>>
>> and you might like the Serotek people too:
>>
>> http://blog.serotek.com/2008/11/serotalk-podcast.html
>>
>> Good luck and stay in touch.
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
>> Behalf Of Michael Ray
>> Sent: 10 September 2010 11:27
>> To: thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
>>
>> This is great...
>>
>> It sounds like a lot of you guys and gals are a lot more seasoned users
>> of
>> this technology than me.
>>
>> Although I've been a programmer for 20 years it is only in the last 2
> years
>> or so that congenital Glaucoma has finally really got it's teeth into me.
>>
>> I've been wanting to find a place to talk to other users of access
> software
>> for a while. So it's great to have these exchanges. But this is a
> Thunder
>> support list I guess. Does anyone know of a list where this kind of
>> discussion might take place?
>>
>> Regards
>> Mike
>> Edinburgh UK
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roger Wilson-Hinds" <roger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: <thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Friday, September 10, 2010 11:08 AM
>> Subject: [thunder] Re: New version of Thunder
>>
>>
>> Very fair comment Douglas re Thunder becoming SAPI5 only. We have done
> this
>> to avoid the constant crashing and stalling caused by multiple voices on
>> machines, especially in libraries, schools and colleges. The downside is
> as
>> you describe, Douglas. eSpeak is fast and functional though not a very
>> beautiful sound!!! (smile). Margaret here uses eSpeak all the time and
>> has
>> done so for years. She finds Daniel just far too slow.
>>
>> Roger.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thunder-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
>> Behalf Of Douglas Harrison
>> Sent: 09 September 2010 21:42
>> To: thunder@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [thunder] New version of Thunder
>>
>> Now that I know that the list is still "alive" and that I am still
>> subscribed, may I raise what
>> appears to me to be an important difference between the latest Thunder
>> and
>> its
>> predecessors.
>>
>> whilst the latest version seems to work considerably better in some
>> applications, I am
>> concerned about the voices available.
>>
>> As I understand it, a beginner, trying to use an XP computer with Thunder
> as
>> screen reader
>> is unlikely to have any voice available to him or her except for the
>> Microsoft SAm - not an
>> encouraging prosppect!. This seems to be the result of Thunder now using
>> only SAPI5
>> voices. with previous versions of thunder some considerably better SAPI4
>> voices were
>> available. I am sure that there must have been good reasons for this
>> change, but...
>>
>> I would be interested to hear if anyone else shares my reservations on
> this
>> point.
>>
>> As a work around I have downloaded the SAPI5 EEspeak installer from
>> http://download.webbie.org.uk and I am currently using one of the voices
> it
>> provides. this is
>> not necessary of course on my Vista machine where I have the Microsoft
> Anna
>> which is
>> quite good.
>>
>>
>> I notice a free screen reader Svox Pico can be downloaded and used with
>> NVDA. Has
>> anyone tried it with Thunder?
>>
>>
>> Douglas
>>
>> --
>>
>> Douglas Harrison
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Alasdair King
> --
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