Mallesons Stephen Jaques www.mallesons.com Confidential communication bernd now i have 2003 bedded in who is tscale on 2003? we've just rolled our = oracle forms app out to another 1200+ staff... we are seeing 1.2Gb of 2gb in use at the 40 user level, everything else = is low according to RM and spotlight, very rarely context switches go = medium for a for seconds JOhn John Rowlandson Technical Support Specialist Mallesons Stephen Jaques Sydney T +61 2 9296 3653 F +61 2 9296 3999 john.rowlandson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Bernd Harzog Sent: Tuesday, 24 February 2004 1:13 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server Since we are in the business of helping people get more concurrent users = =3D per server, my answer would be 30 per server with 2 GB of RAM, and 40 = =3D with 4GB of RAM. That is what we see every day when we ask the question = =3D of our customers, "Where are you right now". That leaves headroom for = =3D peak utilization periods, and headroom in the form of redundancy in case = =3D of server failures. Note that if what I have said above is the average, the distribution =3D outside of the average is wide. We know people who can get 8 concurrent = =3D users on a brand new dual with 4 GB of RAM on W2003. We also know people = =3D who can get over 100 concurrent users on the same hardware. It really = =3D depends upon exactly what applications are on the server, and how those = =3D applications are used. Let me give you an interesting example of how, "How they are used" =3D matters. We have a customer who rolled out an application whose primary = =3D purpose was interactive users doing customer service. Everything was =3D fine at 40 users per server. Then they upgraded the application an put a = =3D new module in it that allowed managers to run reports that summed up =3D what had gotten done in the most recent day/week/month/quarter. The user = =3D count grew by a very small number of managers, but as these managers =3D fired off reports, the reporting engine (Crystal Reports) used up a fair = =3D amount of CPU, and made performance for the interactive users suffer. = =3D So, all of a sudden they were at 30 users per server because they had to = =3D leave headroom for the reports run by the managers. By the way, TScale = =3D got them back up to 40 by automatically managing the CPU used by the =3D reporting engine so that it did not hurt the interactive users. Cheers, Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Nick Smith [mailto:nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20 Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:43 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server OK, I know people hate this, and the real answer is; go test it. However, can anyone give a wild guesstimate of how many concurrent you would get on a modern server running Windows 2003, with a published desktop and just MS Office - Word, Excel, Outlook. Assume 2*2.4Ghz Processors, 4GB RAM. 10? 50? 200? 2000? <Grins hopefully>? And what happens if yo go dwon to 2GB or 1 GB RAM? NIck -----Original Message----- From: Bernd Harzog [mailto:Bernd.Harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D20 Sent: 23 February 2004 13:36 To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server A word of warning on the Citrix test kit and anything else that uses =3D =3D3D3D scripts. Unless you know (or can find out) what the mix of usage is for =3D3D3D each application (what is the distribution and intensity of = =3D3D activities =3D3D3D within Notes), and the mix of usage is across Notes, the Office = =3D =3D3D3D applications and SAP, it is going to be very hard to use a test tool to =3D3D3D accurately simulate what is going to happen in your production = =3D =3D3D3D environment. A word of warning about sizing tools offered by any vendor that is = =3D3D3D selling anything except for a sizing tool. They are designed to show =3D =3D3D3D their own products in the best light possible. The scripts in the Citrix =3D3D3D test kit exercise a minimum set of functionality across Word, = =3D Excel, and =3D3D3D Notepad. A heavy user is defined as someone who types a lot = - which =3D3D3D leaves out the question of what happens when someone fires = =3D off =3D3D a report =3D3D3D in a line of business application. The same thing goes = for =3D =3D3D any sizing =3D3D3D tool offered by a server vendor - remember the objective = of =3D =3D3D the tool is =3D3D3D to help that vendor sell servers - not tell you the = truth about how many =3D3D3D users their server can support. There are others here (like Ron and Brian) who have huge amounts of =3D =3D3D3D field experience answering this question - but my answer is to put a =3D =3D3D3D subset of the farm in production with real production users. Only = =3D3D3D through this method can you KNOW what is going to happen. Finally, with respect to how you know when a server is at capacity, let =3D3D3D me issue one other cautionary note. You (IMHO) cannot tell when = a server =3D3D3D is at capacity by looking at any utilization metrics = (like =3D =3D3D CPU %). The =3D3D3D reason for this is that (again IMHO) you cannot model degradation in =3D3D3D responsiveness to users from utilization metrics. = =3D You can have a fully =3D3D3D responsive server with a CPU utilization of = 100%, =3D =3D3D and one that is =3D3D3D totally unusable with a CPU utilization of 20%. Cheers, Bernd Harzog CEO RTO Software, Inc. bernd.harzog@xxxxxxxxxxx 678-455-5506 x701 www.rtosoft.com -----Original Message----- From: Jim Kenzig http://thethin.net =3D3D [mailto:jimkenz@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D3D3D20 Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 7:55 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] Re: How many users will go on my server The citrix server test kit from http://www.citrix.com/cdn and the = =3D3D3D Terminal server capacity tools at: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techinfo/reskit/tools/hotfixes/tscp t=3D3D3D -o. asp Claudio Rodriquez wrote a little utility for a Pocket/Palm PC at http://www.cewindows.net/applications/tssizer.htm Here is an article for 2003 http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=3D3D3D3Da2ae95da= -b=3D e5=3D3D 6 -=3D3D3D 4495- 9fb5-e4b7170b33d9&DisplayLang=3D3D3D3Den (will probably wrap, copy it all) See the MS FAQ http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/community/centers/terminal/te r=3D3D3D min al_faq.mspx Article on Thinclient.net by Steve and Christa http://www.thinclient.net/technology/Server_Sizing.htm If it is HP servers and you are registered with Active answers HP has a =3D3D3D tool to size with their servers on a link on http://activeanswers.compaq.com/ActiveAnswers/Render/1,1027,4825-6-100-2 2=3D3D3D 5-1 ,00.htm Older white paper on sizing NT 4.0 and Compaq servers with some =3D3D3D relevence ftp://ftp.compaq.com/pub/partners/microsoft/infolib/ecg0680698.pdf Brian Madden had a paper too (and also writes about it in his book I believe) at brianmadden.com And he wrote a performance tuning one to use once your server is set up to increase amount of users at http://www.rtosoft.com/pages/whitepaper_ts_fbm.asp Regards, Jim Kenzig http://thin.net -----Original Message----- From: thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:thin-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Thomas, Jeremy Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 6:32 AM To: thin@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [THIN] How many users will go on my server Problem: I have 2000 users. How many terminal servers do I need. Servers are W2003, XPe, dual Xeon 2.8, 4Gb RAM All users receive a published desktop. Standard applications are MS =3D3D3D Offic=3D3D3D3D e = & =3D Lotus Notes, other applications include SAP. I need to simulate a typical user load - users using applications in a = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D "t=3D3D3D3D ypical" way, and automate this. Then, I need to test various = =3D =3D3D3D applications=3D3D3D3D like Appsense or TScale to see what sort of =3D3D improvement they make on =3D3D3D per=3D3D3D3D formance. So: What can I use to simulate userload of between 40 and 200 users making = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D ty=3D3D3D3D pical use of our application set? What criteria should I use to determine that the server is running at = =3D =3D3D =3D3D3D "fu=3D3D3D3D ll" capacity? What other criteria might I use to fine tune these servers? How did you do it? What were your experiences? What applications might I consider to get the servers running more = =3D3D3D effici=3D3D3D3D ently? Regards, Jeremy Thomas ******************************************************** This weeks sponsor Vizioncore, Inc.=3D3D3D20 --> vc-iMonitor - Performance Monitoring, Control & =3D Reporting=3D3D3D20=3D3D20 --> vc-iControl - Desktop & Start Menu Management & =3D Reporting=3D3D3D20=3D3D20 --> vc-iMapper - Drive, Printer & COM Management & Reporting=3D3D3D20 http://vizioncore.com/products.html=3D3D3D20 ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=3D3D3D20 set Digest or = Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This weeks sponsor Vizioncore, Inc.=3D3D20 --> vc-iMonitor - Performance Monitoring, Control & Reporting=3D3D20 --> vc-iControl - Desktop & Start Menu Management & Reporting vc-iMapper --> - Drive, Printer & COM Management & Reporting http://vizioncore.com/products.html ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This weeks sponsor Vizioncore, Inc.=3D20 --> vc-iMonitor - Performance Monitoring, Control & Reporting=3D20 --> vc-iControl - Desktop & Start Menu Management & Reporting=3D20 --> vc-iMapper - Drive, Printer & COM Management & Reporting=3D20 http://vizioncore.com/products.html=3D20 ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=3D20 set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This weeks sponsor Vizioncore, Inc.=20 --> vc-iMonitor - Performance Monitoring, Control & Reporting=20 --> vc-iControl - Desktop & Start Menu Management & Reporting=20 --> vc-iMapper - Drive, Printer & COM Management & Reporting=20 http://vizioncore.com/products.html=20 ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thethin.net/links.cfm *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or=20 set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thethin.net/citrixlist.cfm ******************************************************** This weeks sponsor triCerat Inc. triCerat makes your job easier by offering essential applications to eliminate your printing, policy and profile, and your application management problems. http://www.triCerat.com ********************************************************** Useful Thin Client Computing Links are available at: http://thin.net/links.cfm *********************************************************** For Archives, to Unsubscribe, Subscribe or set Digest or Vacation mode use the below link: http://thin.net/citrixlist.cfm