All,
In the Mil-Aero space, VITA standards organization (Vita.com) we have
standardized s-parameter naming with VITA 68.2. Vita 68.2 defines how one
defines port numbers, TX/RX and port naming convention. This includes any plug
in module, backplane or connector systems used within the standards body. The
main goal when writing the spec, remove the labor needed to decode an
s-parameter and re-draw the symbol when placing into a channel simulation. The
standard port definition might not be what everyone prefers, but at least in
the EDA tools it is very easy to mirror, odd/even swap... to quickly bring an
s-parameter into the tool of choice, connect and start simulating.
I agree that adding more capability in the touchstone is key and have the EDA
vendors buy in to parse text attributes in the touchtone to setup the symbol to
your desire.
Thanks,
Kevin
Mercury Systems
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Walter Katz
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2019 8:55 AM
To: dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; Hermann.Ruckerbauer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx;
si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Cc: Randy Wolff <rrwolff@xxxxxxxxxx>; Arpad_Muranyi@xxxxxxxxxx; Michael Mirmak
<michael.mirmak@xxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [SI-LIST] Re: sparam port order naming rule
All,
This whole e-mail thread is conflating three issues.
1. The order of the ports in the sNp Touchstone file.
2. Information on each port (e.g. port names, near end far end, differential
associations,
power and ground, and multidrop port connectivity).
3. The graphic symbol that is used in the schematic
I think there is a practical solution to addressing these issues that is
compatible with existing s-parameter data sets, and existing s-parameter
generation tools: The IBIS standards group defines a standard text format that
documents the ports of an Touchstone file. This information should be
sufficiently complete to enable EDA tool and users to automatically generate
schematic symbols according to one of several user desired graphic schemas.
Along with these graphic symbols there would be a subckt that converts the port
ordering of the symbol to the port ordering of the Touchstone file.
IBIS understands the needs to enhance the Touchstone experience and will base
these enhancements based on user inputs. I will bring this discussion up in
todays IBIS Open Forum meeting, and will request that we create an e-mail forum
to resolve the details of these enhancements to make sure it meets the needs of
the user community.
Walter
Walter Katz
wkatz@xxxxxxxxxx
Office 978.461-0449 x 133
Mobile 720.417-3762
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Sherman Shan (Redacted sender "shan" for DMARC)
Sent: Friday, September 6, 2019 7:28 AM
To: Hermann.Ruckerbauer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: sparam port order naming rule
Hello Hermann,
Yes, that are two main reasons why the odd/even order is much favored by SI
folks.
Some plausible drawbacks associated with this order:
1. not friendly for cascading. I think this can be easily overcome by EDA tools
in a transparent way so it might not be a big issue?
2. a little bit less-straightforward when doing port configuration. You will
have to pick odd numbered ports (rather than port 1, 2, 3..) to set up when you
position the canvas at the input side of the model. This should be a minor
inconvenience.
There should be other advantages/disadvantages concerning these two port
orders. I'm open for comments.
Your comments reminded me that I should include the odd/even as the 4th port
order name proposal, ie, Odd/Even order, and Split order (or Block order, or
Half/Half order?).
Regards,
Sherman Shan Chen
SI/PI Group, Kandou Bus
5 Queensbridge, Northampton, UK, NN4 7BF
Office: +44 1604 635826 Email: shan@xxxxxxxxxx reinventing the BUS
-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of
Hermann Ruckerbauer
Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 8:26 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: sparam port order naming rule
Hello,
reasons for me to prefer odd/even port numbering:
- S21 is just insertion loss ... I do not need to take a look how many ports I
have overall to understand what is my first IL plot..
- generating a model with more port does not destroy the port numbers of the
smaller model ..
Hermann
--
EKH - EyeKnowHow
Signal Quality - Made in Bavaria
Hermann Ruckerbauer
www.EyeKnowHow.de
Hermann.Ruckerbauer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Itzlinger Strasse 21a
94469 Deggendorf
Tel.: +49 (0)991 / 29 69 29 05
Mobile: +49 (0)176 / 787 787 77
Fax: +49 (0)3212 / 121 9008
Am 05.09.2019 um 17:03 schrieb Sherman Shan Chen (Redacted sender shan for
DMARC):
Hi Scott,
In my opinion both orders (ie, LR order and UD order, if following
Naming Proposal #1) are useful under some circumstances. My current
practice is as follows:
1. Keep all the input/output snp files to LR order; 2. When doing
cascading in Matlab, convert all sparam to UD order then convert the
export snp back to LR order.
I have been worried and watching out for the possible issues existing
in this strategy but it seems working fine so far.
If you or someone else can point out the problems of above practice,
pls do let me know. Appreciate that.
Regards,
/Sherman Shan Chen/
SI/PI Group, Kandou Bus
5 Queensbridge, Northampton,UK, NN4 7BF
Office: +44 1604 635826 Email: shan@xxxxxxxxxx
reinventing the BUS
On 9/5/2019 3:24 PM, Scott McMorrow wrote:
Gert
Did you even read my previous email? I've been down this road just a
few times, with S-parameters as large as S1020P with both through
signal paths and power paths. To reiterate
We need unique names or net names for each port
Side for each port (A|B|(C))
Tx/Rx/PWR designator
This satisfies most user requirements.
However, I prefer low port numbers on the Ingress side (side A) and
high port numbers on the Egress side (Side B). It is easier for me
personally to perform a cascade of multiple s-parameters and multiple
sizes of s-parameters without making mistakes. Internally at Samtec
it is known as the Teraspeed port ordering standard. All of our
tools perform reordering into this standard.
You may prefer something different, but before you make that
conclusion I would challenge you to try to manipulate massive
Solver-generated s-parameters, such as are generated in package
analysis, and figure out an efficient way to process and make sense of the
results.
Scott McMorrow, CTO Signal Integrity Group Samtec Office 401-284-1827
| +1-800-726-8329 www.samtec.com<http://www.samtec.com/>
Scott McMorrow,
Office: 401-284-1827
www.samtec.com
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