[SI-LIST] Re: si-list Digest V20 #9

From: steve@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: si-list digest users <ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2020 14:29:54 +0000 (UTC)

The DC part is helpful for assessing low frequency, VRM related phenomena.Â
See the DesignCon 2018 paper I co-authored with Jack Carrell (Xilinx) and Heidi
Barnes (Keysight).Â  The issue was at very low frequency.

Steven M. Sandler

Managing Director

www.picotest.com

(480) 375-0075

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:14 PM -0700, "FreeLists Mailing List Manager"
<ecartis@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

si-list Digest  Fri, 17 Jan 2020        Volume: 20  Issue: 009

In This Issue:
        #1:     From: Inmyoung Song
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [EXTERNAL]Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
        #2:     From: Binayak Shrestha
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance
        #3:     From: "Havermann, Gert"
                Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance
        #4:     From: "Westerhoff, Todd"
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
        #5:     From: Scott McMorrow
                Subject: [SI-LIST] mEEt and gEEk at designcon (Last Call)
        #6:     From: "Grasso, Charles"
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
        #7:     From: Ivor Bowden
                Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Msg: #1 in digest
From: Inmyoung Song
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: [EXTERNAL]Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 07:39:45 +0100

Strange word.
It happens to be DC part of buffer model?

From my EYE Phone

2020. 1. 17. 05:26, Aubrey Sparkman  Ã¬ÂÂÃ¬ÂÂ±:

Ã¯Â»Â¿A practical joke?

Aubrey

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 16, 2020, at 5:21 PM, Scott McMorrow  wrote:

Ã¯Â»Â¿What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
Not very useful.

Scott McMorrow,

Office: 401-284-1827
www.samtec.com

This email and any appended documents are only for the intended
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you this message in error, please notify Samtec immediately and delete the
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Get Outlook for Android
________________________________
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  on behalf of Muranyi, Arpad
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 5:51:53 PM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [EXTERNAL][SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

Charles,

I am scratching my head about this one too, I never heard this expression
before.  Is it trying to indicate that any S-parameter models that may be
part of it one way or another go to 0 Hz?  Or does it mean that the buffer
model is only capable of switching at 0 Hz (i.e. "do nothing")?  :-)

Thanks,

Arpad
=========================================================

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Westerhoff, Todd
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 2:48 PM
To: CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

Charles,

Well, that's a new one. Where did that phrase come from?

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High-Speed Design Product Marketing | Electronic Board Systems
300 Nickerson Rd, Marlboro, MA 01752
todd_westerhoff@xxxxxxxxxx | office: 508-303-5821 | cell: 978-846-0203

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Grasso, Charles
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 10:43 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

Hello SI gurus - Would someone please help me understand what a 0Hz IBIS
model is?
Thanks!

Charles Grasso
(w) 303-706-5467
(c) 303-204-2974

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delete the email, attachments and all copies. The intended recipient should
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------------------------------

Msg: #2 in digest
From: Binayak Shrestha
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:21:19 +0530
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance

Normally, we define loop inductance with self partial inductance and mutual
inductance. You can't have a negative loop inductance.
Binayak

On Wed, 15 Jan, 2020, 9:51 pm Akunuru Venkata Naga Kalyan Ram, <
a.v.n.kalyanram@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello SI/PI Altruists,
I have a question regarding Power Plane loop Inductance phenomenon. I have
a*
6'x6" board with 2 layers* (Power and GND planes) and I have defined 2
ports , each one on each edge of the board like a edge connector.
I am using a third party tool to do the simulation and the results show
that the *loop inductance* has a peculiar resonance below 200 MHz and the
value goes to -400 nH.
What is this phenomenon? What does the negative value of Inductance imply?
Can inductance value be negative?
Thank you in advance.
--

Warm Regards:
A.V.N.Kalyan Ram

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------------------------------

Msg: #3 in digest
From: "Havermann, Gert"
Subject: [SI-LIST] AW: Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:21 +0000

Some tools use negative inductance or negative capacitance to cancel the effect
of inductance or capacitance (similar to de-embedding). Sometimes you also get
negative values if the inductance you "measure" is in fact a capacitance.
Depends on the tool you use, but it is never physical, only mathematical.
I have only seen one negative inductance:
https://4gang.wordpress.com/how-to-build-a-negative-inductance/
-lol-

Mit freundlichen GrÃÂ¼ÃÂen / Kind regards.
Gert Havermann
Signal Integrity Engineer
Dept.: Corporate Technology Services
HARTING Stiftung & Co. KG
MarienwerderstraÃÂe 3
D-32339 Espelkamp
Phone +49 (0)5772 47 857
Fax +49 (0)5772 47 90857
mailto:gert.havermann@xxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.HARTING.com

----------------------------------------
HARTING Stiftung & Co. KG | Postfach 11 33, 32325 Espelkamp | www.HARTING.com
PersÃÂ¶nlich haftende Gesellschafterin:
HARTING FÃÂ¼hrungsstiftung | Amtsgericht MÃÂ¼nchen | HRA 108479 | MÃÂ¼nchen
Vorstand: Dipl.-Kfm. Philip F. W. Harting (Vorsitzender), Dipl.-Kffr. Maresa W.
M. Harting-Hertz, Dipl.-Kfm. Dr.-Ing. E. h. Dietmar Harting,
Dipl.-Hdl. Margrit Harting, Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Dipl.-Wirtsch.-Ing. (FH) Andreas
Conrad, Dr. iur. Michael PÃÂ¼tz
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Espelkamp | Amtsgericht Bad Oeynhausen | HRA 9021 |
UST-ld Nr. DE812136745

-----UrsprÃÂ¼ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Im Auftrag von Binayak Shrestha
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Januar 2020 10:51
An: a.v.n.kalyanram@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: Si-list
Betreff: [SI-LIST] Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance

Normally, we define loop inductance with self partial inductance and mutual
inductance. You can't have a negative loop inductance.
Binayak

On Wed, 15 Jan, 2020, 9:51 pm Akunuru Venkata Naga Kalyan Ram, <
a.v.n.kalyanram@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hello SI/PI Altruists,
I have a question regarding Power Plane loop Inductance phenomenon. I
have
a*
6'x6" board with 2 layers* (Power and GND planes) and I have defined 2
ports , each one on each edge of the board like a edge connector.
I am using a third party tool to do the simulation and the results
show that the *loop inductance* has a peculiar resonance below 200 MHz
and the value goes to -400 nH.
What is this phenomenon? What does the negative value of Inductance imply?
Can inductance value be negative?
Thank you in advance.
--

Warm Regards:
A.V.N.Kalyan Ram

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------------------------------

Msg: #4 in digest
From: "Westerhoff, Todd"
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:33:21 +0000

I'm wondering if it's just terminology getting mixed up or being used in a way
we don't expect.
For example, the V/I curves in an IBIS model effectively describe DC behavior,
so that's one interpretation.

Another possibility is that active and passive models are getting mixed up, so
that "0 Hz" is referring to a DC point in an S-parameter, where it's pointed to
by an IBIS model or not.

Charles, can you shed any light on this?

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High-Speed Design Product Marketing | Electronic Board Systems
300 Nickerson Rd, Marlboro, MA 01752
todd_westerhoff@xxxxxxxxxx | office: 508-303-5821 | cell: 978-846-0203

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Tran, Eric
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 5:59 PM
To: CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

It must have been marketing that invented the 0Hz term because we just call it
DC. A DC model does nothing, maybe Rdson voltage drop?
Eric
P.S I've been lurking for 13 years and this finally made me comment.

Ã¯Â»Â¿On 1/16/20, 7:44 AM, "si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Grasso,
Charles"  wrote:

    Hello SI gurus - Would someone please help me understand what a 0Hz IBIS
model is?
    Thanks!

    Charles Grasso
    (w) 303-706-5467
    (c) 303-204-2974


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------------------------------

Msg: #5 in digest
From: Scott McMorrow
Subject: [SI-LIST] mEEt and gEEk at designcon (Last Call)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:09:39 +0000

It's that time again. For those of you who will be at DesignCon on Wednesday,
January 29th, we will be holding our Meet and Geek event. If you don't know
about it, we provide a place for SI geeks to get together and socialize after
hours.
This year it will be held at 6:30-8:30PM Sierra Ballroom - Hilton Santa Clara
4949 Great America Parkway, Santa Clara, CS Just across from the convention
center.

There will be Complementary beer, wine, and appetizers, all at no cost to you.
No sales pitch, just friendly socializing. The conversations go wherever you
decide, and there have been some great ones in the past!

To attend, please RSVP to
meetandgeek@xxxxxxxxxx by January 20th And stop by Booth 737 to pick up your
ticket on January 29th.

Get Outlook for Android

Scott McMorrow,

Office: 401-284-1827
www.samtec.com



This email and any appended documents are only for the intended person/entity
and may contain information of Samtec, Inc., that is PRIVILEGED, PROPRIETARY,
CONFIDENTIAL, AND/OR PROTECTED BY LAW. If you are not the intended recipient
you are hereby notified that any dissemination, disclosure, use or copying of
this email or its contents is prohibited. If you this message in error, please
notify Samtec immediately and delete the email, attachments and all copies. The
intended recipient should not disclose the content to third parties or
reproduce the content without Samtec's written consent.





delete the email, attachments and all copies. The intended recipient should
not disclose the content to third parties or reproduce the content without
Samtec's written consent.

------------------------------

Msg: #6 in digest
From: "Grasso, Charles"
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 16:30:14 +0000

Hello all - Thank you all for looking into this!
I have enclosed the header from the IBIS model in question. When I was first
presented
with this model, I thought (as did others) that this was an IBIS model to be
used in PDN
analysis only - or maybe in a co-simulation.

Based on the comments and general puzzlement, I must assume that itÃ¢ÂÂs a
naming convention
from the vendor. I have pinged the vendor - had no response so far - I will
ping the vendor (again) !

************************************************************************
|                      File Header
|************************************************************************
[IBIS ver]       5.0
[File name]      xxxxxxxxx_ibis_0hz_combined.ibs
[File Rev]       1
[Date]           Tue Nov  5 14:19:00 2019
[Source]

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx  On Behalf Of Westerhoff, Todd
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2020 6:33 AM
To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

This message originated outside of DISH and was sent by:
si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

I'm wondering if it's just terminology getting mixed up or being used in a way
we don't expect.
For example, the V/I curves in an IBIS model effectively describe DC behavior,
so that's one interpretation.

Another possibility is that active and passive models are getting mixed up, so
that "0 Hz" is referring to a DC point in an S-parameter, where it's pointed to
by an IBIS model or not.

Charles, can you shed any light on this?

Todd.

Todd Westerhoff
High-Speed Design Product Marketing | Electronic Board Systems
300 Nickerson Rd, Marlboro, MA 01752
todd_westerhoff@xxxxxxxxxx | office: 508-303-5821 | cell: 978-846-0203

-----Original Message-----
From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On ;
Behalf Of Tran, Eric
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 5:59 PM
To: CHARLES.GRASSO@xxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: What is a 0Hz IBIS model?

It must have been marketing that invented the 0Hz term because we just call it
DC. A DC model does nothing, maybe Rdson voltage drop?
Eric
P.S I've been lurking for 13 years and this finally made me comment.

Ã¯Â»Â¿On 1/16/20, 7:44 AM, "si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx on behalf of Grasso,
Charles"  wrote:

    Hello SI gurus - Would someone please help me understand what a 0Hz IBIS
model is?
    Thanks!

    Charles Grasso
    (w) 303-706-5467
    (c) 303-204-2974


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------------------------------

Msg: #7 in digest
Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Help:Negative Loop Inductance
From: Ivor Bowden
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 11:48:54 -0800

Akunuru Venkata Naga Kalyan Ram,
Cadence PowerSi can graph capacitance and inductance
separately when viewing extraction results as RLGC, and in
some cases may display either / both as negative at some
frequencies. As I understand, interpretation of negative
inductance would be capacitive, and interpretation of
negative capacitance would be inductive. I wouldn't expect
to see them both negative at the same time. This
presentation isn't generally relative, as capacitance and
inductance cancel each other. What would be more relevant is
impedance along with phase. That would say both what the
impedance is and whether it is capacitive, inductive, or
neither (when at 0 degrees). For more information, your
Cadence FAE should be able to assist.
I consider PowerSi achieves reasonable results for
extractions when properly set up, but its display of results
to be somewhat funky. Typically I'll take the PowerSi SnP
output file and use it for simulation with another tool,
like ADS, for more flexible display options.
Regards,
Ivor

On 1/15/2020 8:20 AM, Akunuru Venkata Naga Kalyan Ram wrote:

Hello SI/PI Altruists,
I have a question regarding Power Plane loop Inductance phenomenon. I have a*
6'x6" board with 2 layers* (Power and GND planes) and I have defined 2
ports , each one on each edge of the board like a edge connector.
I am using a third party tool to do the simulation and the results show
that the *loop inductance* has a peculiar resonance below 200 MHz and the
value goes to -400 nH.
What is this phenomenon? What does the negative value of Inductance imply?
Can inductance value be negative?
Thank you in advance.

------------------------------

End of si-list Digest V20 #9
****************************

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[SI-LIST] Re: si-list Digest V20 #9

Other related posts: