[SI-LIST] QLOGIC Ref. Designs
- From: Kamran Azizi <azizi_kamran@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 12:06:11 -0800 (PST)
Any body from Qlogic that I can ask some questions on their high speed
reference board designs? I need some immediate help
Thank you,
Kami,
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Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:47:40 +0100
From: "Ing. Giancarlo Guida" <gianguida@xxxxxxxx>
Organization: znl consulting
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To: hassan@xxxxxxxx
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Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Package SI vs PCB SI
References: 1139931889.26444_0000.www-webmail1
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Hi Hassan,
to my opinion there are at least 2 good reason that explain your statement.
SI simulation accuracy depends on 2 factor:
1) accuracy of the model for the interconections
2) accuracy of the model fo the I/O Buffer
it is quite clear that when the data-rates become critical it is
necessary to use a 3D full wave approach in the
interconnect models
I think that tools like the ones you mention does not have such 3D
solver because they are
dedicated to post-layout analysis of the entire PCB and the usage of an
heavy 3D solver would be beyond their application area.
May be a similar argument could be used to explain the need to use spice
model for the I/o buffer instead of the ibis model...but I am not an
expert in this area.
Regards
Giancarlo
Hassan O. Ali ha scritto:
> Scott,
>
> Thanks for this excellent response.
>
> I have a question for you SI folks:
>
> Am I right to observe that as the data-rates increase beyond 5Gbps, there is
> an
> increasing loss of faith on the previously popular board-level SI tools such
> as
> SpecctraQuest (now Allegro PCB SI), XTK, Hyperlynx, ICX, etc. in favor of
> HSPICE used
> with field-solver-s-parameter-based inteconnect models?
>
> I was personally surprised to see a notable absence of a focus on such
> board-level tools
> in the just ended DesignCon 2006. What does this all mean? Is Darwinism
> (survival of the
> fittest) at play here?
>
> I'd appreciate your responses.
>
> Best regards.
>
> Hassan.
>
>
>
> On Feb 14, Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
>> Prasad
>> The theory is the same,whether you are dealing with packages, system in
>> package, MCM or PCB. However, the details will change quite a bit. PCB
>> SI tools tend to assume that all routing is orthogonal, or aligned at
>> increments of 45 degrees. This makes sense, since orthogonal and 45
>> degree diagonal routing are extremely efficient with respect to space
>> utilization. An assumption is therefore made by the PCB trace
>> extraction tools that two traces are either parallel, or they are not.
>> If they are parallel (as defined by parallelism on the 8 compass
>> directions) then coupling is calculated. If not, no coupling is
>> calculated. For all other traces, with non-45 degree angles, or
>> different angles, they are assumed to be uncoupled and independent. As
>> I said, for PCB designs, this is often a reasonable assumption. But for
>> aggressive PCB design where odd-angle routing is used for maximum trace
>> density between parts, and for MCMs and packages, where routing often
>> radiates from a die in the center out to the balls, PCB-type trace
>> modeling software can be woefully inadequate. That's where you start
>> getting into the problem of non-uniform coupled transmission lines and
>> imperfect planes with large numbers of perforations.
>>
>> Current density on package power and ground planes is much higher than
>> that on PCB planes, causing additional SSO, SSN problems that are not as
>> likely to impact signals on a PCB. As a result, analysis of package SI
>> usually involves a combination of 3D solvers, and complete simulation of
>> the package signal, power, ground and return paths. Books like Eric
>> Bogatin's give you all the basic information that you need. You can
>> then expand your knowledge with Brian Young's book, Digital Signal
>> Integrity, which has a very good discussion of partial inductance and
>> package measurements, Clayton Paul's book, Analysis of Multiconductor
>> Transmission Lines, which is still the fundamental theoretical book on
>> TEM transmission line modeling, and Luc Martens book, High-Frequency
>> Characterization of Electronic Packaging, which gives a good overview of
>> modern package characterization techniques.
>>
>> At the IC level, SI becomes even more difficult. There are no ground
>> planes, only power and ground meshes. Multiple modes of propagation can
>> exist, including slow-wave mode, where the electric and magnetic fields
>> decouple, due to the semiconductor properties of the dielectric, rapidly
>> increasing propagation delays, and causing significant dispersion. Ed
>> Sayre, III, on this list, has some background in this area. I am sure
>> there are others lurking on this list that also have significant
>> experience in on-chip SI.
>>
>> Best regards and happy learning,
>>
>> Scott
>>
>>
>> Scott McMorrow
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>> 121 North River Drive
>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>
>> <a
>>
> href='http://www.teraspeed.com</a>'>http://www.teraspeed.com'>http://www.teraspeed.com</a
>
>> Teraspeed® is the registered service mark of
>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> prasadsa wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for all your mails. Many of these books talk about refers to SI on
>>> Boards. But i am looking in particularly for books on IC-Package if any or
>>> does the same theory (books) holds good on IC-Package also.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Prasad S A
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Coe, Stephen" <scoe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> To: <qazi@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:54 AM
>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Let me add my 2 cents :=20
>>>>
>>>> "High-Speed Circuit Board Signal Integrity"=20
>>>>
>>>> by Stephen Thierauf
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Qazi Arif Iqbal
>>>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:37 PM
>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>
>>>> Eric Bogatin's "Signal Integrity Simplified" is another excellent book.
>>>>
>>>> Qazi=20
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Doug Martens
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 8:25 PM
>>>> To: akhilesh.chandra@xxxxxx; prasadsa@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>
>>>> Black Magic is written by Howard Johnston and it is a good book.
>>>> Another good book is from Lee Ritchey called "Right the first Time: a
>>>> practical handbook on high speed PCB and System design"
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>> On Behalf Of Akhilesh CHANDRA
>>>> Sent: February 5, 2006 9:19 PM
>>>> To: prasadsa@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>
>>>> Hello Prasad,
>>>>
>>>> In my view for signel integrity best book is "BLACK MAGIC" I =
>>>> forgot=3D20
>>>> the name of the writer. I will serch it on net and inform you soon.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Akhilesh
>>>>
>>>> prasadsa wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> Can you please suggest me a good book for IC-Packaging / SIP Technology
>>>>>
>>>>> & SI book on the same subject.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>> Prasad
>>>>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> privileged.=3D20
>>>>
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>>>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately
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>>>>
>
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