[SI-LIST] Re: Package SI vs. PCB SI...thanks to Maxwell
- From: "Ing. Giancarlo Guida" <gianguida@xxxxxxxx>
- To: "Haller, Robert" <rhaller@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:59:46 +0100
Bob, I agree with you.
PDS and packages and others does play a significant role
in SI/EMC.
As we try, more and more, to "put" in a PCB signals with "Big bandwith"
we should be ready to take in to account effects that we neglected in
the past.
But we are lucky..:-)))
thanks to J.C: Maxwell we have a set of equations that
perfectly describe all the effetcs we are interested....
question is: when we will have PCs and software good enough...
to simulate all the effects all together:-)))))?
Giancarlo
Haller, Robert ha scritto:
> Hassan, Giancarlo,
> IMHO a hybrid SI process is required to handle the complexities of many
> of today's high speed PCB's. Complex accurate and complete I/O and
> interconnect models are required for high speed links, but do not ignore
> packages, power distribution or medium and slow speed networks. Murphy
> is always out there and whatever you fail to consider (analyze
> adequately) will come back to bite you.
>
> Regards,
> Bob
>
> Robert Haller
> Enterasys Networks
> Core Routing - Hardware
> Phone: 978-684-1340
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Ing. Giancarlo Guida
> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 11:48 AM
> To: hassan@xxxxxxxx
> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Package SI vs PCB SI
>
> Hi Hassan,
> to my opinion there are at least 2 good reason that explain your
> statement.
>
> SI simulation accuracy depends on 2 factor:
> 1) accuracy of the model for the interconections
> 2) accuracy of the model fo the I/O Buffer
>
> it is quite clear that when the data-rates become critical it is
> necessary to use a 3D full wave approach in the
> interconnect models
>
> I think that tools like the ones you mention does not have such 3D
> solver because they are
> dedicated to post-layout analysis of the entire PCB and the usage of an
> heavy 3D solver would be beyond their application area.
>
> May be a similar argument could be used to explain the need to use spice
>
> model for the I/o buffer instead of the ibis model...but I am not an
> expert in this area.
>
> Regards
>
> Giancarlo
>
>
> Hassan O. Ali ha scritto:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> Thanks for this excellent response.
>>
>> I have a question for you SI folks:
>>
>> Am I right to observe that as the data-rates increase beyond 5Gbps,
>>
> there is an
>
>> increasing loss of faith on the previously popular board-level SI
>>
> tools such as
>
>> SpecctraQuest (now Allegro PCB SI), XTK, Hyperlynx, ICX, etc. in favor
>>
> of HSPICE used
>
>> with field-solver-s-parameter-based inteconnect models?
>>
>> I was personally surprised to see a notable absence of a focus on such
>>
> board-level tools
>
>> in the just ended DesignCon 2006. What does this all mean? Is
>>
> Darwinism (survival of the
>
>> fittest) at play here?
>>
>> I'd appreciate your responses.
>>
>> Best regards.
>>
>> Hassan.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 14, Scott McMorrow <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Prasad
>>> The theory is the same,whether you are dealing with packages, system
>>>
> in
>
>>> package, MCM or PCB. However, the details will change quite a bit.
>>>
> PCB
>
>>> SI tools tend to assume that all routing is orthogonal, or aligned at
>>>
>
>
>>> increments of 45 degrees. This makes sense, since orthogonal and 45
>>> degree diagonal routing are extremely efficient with respect to space
>>>
>
>
>>> utilization. An assumption is therefore made by the PCB trace
>>> extraction tools that two traces are either parallel, or they are
>>>
> not.
>
>>> If they are parallel (as defined by parallelism on the 8 compass
>>> directions) then coupling is calculated. If not, no coupling is
>>> calculated. For all other traces, with non-45 degree angles, or
>>> different angles, they are assumed to be uncoupled and independent.
>>>
> As
>
>>> I said, for PCB designs, this is often a reasonable assumption. But
>>>
> for
>
>>> aggressive PCB design where odd-angle routing is used for maximum
>>>
> trace
>
>>> density between parts, and for MCMs and packages, where routing often
>>>
>
>
>>> radiates from a die in the center out to the balls, PCB-type trace
>>> modeling software can be woefully inadequate. That's where you start
>>>
>
>
>>> getting into the problem of non-uniform coupled transmission lines
>>>
> and
>
>>> imperfect planes with large numbers of perforations.
>>>
>>> Current density on package power and ground planes is much higher
>>>
> than
>
>>> that on PCB planes, causing additional SSO, SSN problems that are not
>>>
> as
>
>>> likely to impact signals on a PCB. As a result, analysis of package
>>>
> SI
>
>>> usually involves a combination of 3D solvers, and complete simulation
>>>
> of
>
>>> the package signal, power, ground and return paths. Books like Eric
>>> Bogatin's give you all the basic information that you need. You can
>>> then expand your knowledge with Brian Young's book, Digital Signal
>>> Integrity, which has a very good discussion of partial inductance and
>>>
>
>
>>> package measurements, Clayton Paul's book, Analysis of Multiconductor
>>>
>
>
>>> Transmission Lines, which is still the fundamental theoretical book
>>>
> on
>
>>> TEM transmission line modeling, and Luc Martens book, High-Frequency
>>> Characterization of Electronic Packaging, which gives a good overview
>>>
> of
>
>>> modern package characterization techniques.
>>>
>>> At the IC level, SI becomes even more difficult. There are no ground
>>>
>
>
>>> planes, only power and ground meshes. Multiple modes of propagation
>>>
> can
>
>>> exist, including slow-wave mode, where the electric and magnetic
>>>
> fields
>
>>> decouple, due to the semiconductor properties of the dielectric,
>>>
> rapidly
>
>>> increasing propagation delays, and causing significant dispersion.
>>>
> Ed
>
>>> Sayre, III, on this list, has some background in this area. I am
>>>
> sure
>
>>> there are others lurking on this list that also have significant
>>> experience in on-chip SI.
>>>
>>> Best regards and happy learning,
>>>
>>> Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> Scott McMorrow
>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>> 121 North River Drive
>>> Narragansett, RI 02882
>>> (401) 284-1827 Business
>>> (401) 284-1840 Fax
>>>
>>> <a
>>>
>>>
> href='http://www.teraspeed.com</a>'>http://www.teraspeed.com'>http://www
> .teraspeed.com</a
>
>>
>>
>>> Teraspeed(r) is the registered service mark of
>>> Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> prasadsa wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all your mails. Many of these books talk about refers to
>>>>
> SI on
>
>>>> Boards. But i am looking in particularly for books on IC-Package if
>>>>
> any or
>
>>>> does the same theory (books) holds good on IC-Package also.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Prasad S A
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Coe, Stephen" <scoe@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: <qazi@xxxxxxxxxx>; <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 2:54 AM
>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Let me add my 2 cents :=20
>>>>>
>>>>> "High-Speed Circuit Board Signal Integrity"=20
>>>>>
>>>>> by Stephen Thierauf
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>
>>>>> On Behalf Of Qazi Arif Iqbal
>>>>> Sent: Monday, February 06, 2006 6:37 PM
>>>>> To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric Bogatin's "Signal Integrity Simplified" is another excellent
>>>>>
> book.
>
>>>>> Qazi=20
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>
>>>>> On Behalf Of Doug Martens
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 8:25 PM
>>>>> To: akhilesh.chandra@xxxxxx; prasadsa@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>>
>>>>> Black Magic is written by Howard Johnston and it is a good book.
>>>>> Another good book is from Lee Ritchey called "Right the first Time:
>>>>>
> a
>
>>>>> practical handbook on high speed PCB and System design"
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>
> [mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>
>>>>> On Behalf Of Akhilesh CHANDRA
>>>>> Sent: February 5, 2006 9:19 PM
>>>>> To: prasadsa@xxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Good book
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Prasad,
>>>>>
>>>>> In my view for signel integrity best book is "BLACK MAGIC" I =
>>>>> forgot=3D20
>>>>> the name of the writer. I will serch it on net and inform you soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>> Akhilesh
>>>>>
>>>>> prasadsa wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> Can you please suggest me a good book for IC-Packaging / SIP
>>>>>>
> Technology
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> & SI book on the same subject.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks in advance
>>>>>> Prasad
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> This e-mail is intended for the use of the individual or entity
>>>>>>
> named
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> above and may contain information that is confidential and
>>>>> privileged.=3D20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
>>>>>>
> that any
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly
>>>>> prohibited.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us
>>>>>>
> immediately
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> at prasadsa@xxxxxxxxxx and destroy the original message.=3D20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> While this e-mail and any attachments have been scanned for common
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> computer viruses and found to be virus free,=3D20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> we recommend you also perform your own virus checking processes
>>>>>>
> before
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> opening any attachments. =3D20
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from si-list:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>>
>> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
>> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>>
>> For help:
>> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>>
>> List FAQ wiki page is located at:
>> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>>
>> List technical documents are available at:
>> http://www.si-list.org
>>
>> List archives are viewable at:
>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
>> or at our remote archives:
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
>> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from si-list:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
>
> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
>
> For help:
> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
>
> List FAQ wiki page is located at:
> http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
>
> List technical documents are available at:
> http://www.si-list.org
>
> List archives are viewable at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
> or at our remote archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from si-list:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field
or to administer your membership from a web page, go to:
//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list
For help:
si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field
List FAQ wiki page is located at:
http://si-list.org/wiki/wiki.pl?Si-List_FAQ
List technical documents are available at:
http://www.si-list.org
List archives are viewable at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/si-list
or at our remote archives:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages
Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at:
http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
Other related posts:
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Package SI vs. PCB SI...thanks to Maxwell
