Hello, I apologize for the direct e-mail. I sometimes forget that I must reply to all in order to get this to the SI-LIST. For Outlook, in 'Tools' > 'Options' > 'Mail Format' (tab), click the "Settings" button. Change 'Encode text using:' to "None". The "Settings" button should be in the same place where you have set the message format to plain text. I am using Outlook2000 SR-1 (9.0.0.5414). Cheers! Drew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drew" <drew@xxxxxxxxxx> To: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Extra symbols Jeff, I will have to look for this in Outlook. I use Outlook Express. Cheers! Drew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx> To: "Drew" <drew@xxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:11 PM Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Extra symbols I don't see any options like this. Do you have them in Outlook? Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: Drew [mailto:drew@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 1:02 PM To: Loyer, Jeff Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Extra symbols Hello, No matter how hard they try, the freelist server has problems with the 'quoted printable' option. Change 'quoted printable' or 'base64' to none. Cheers! Drew ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx> To: "si-list" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: [SI-LIST] Extra symbols Does anyone know how I can keep the extra symbols ("=3D") from appearing = at the end of lines from my postings? I'm using Outlook 2000, and = already have it set to send replies in plain text. Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: Loyer, Jeff=20 Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 12:34 PM To: deibele@xxxxxxx Cc: si-list Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Dispersion This part of the thread (discussion of dispersion) began when I asked = =3D the question below. It seems that we are back to the original question. ORIGINAL QUESTION: When you use the term "dispersive", are you talking about losses =3D (resistive, skin effect, dielectric), or about differences in phase =3D velocities (page 170 of Pozar's book)? I've heard others refer to loss = =3D effects as dispersive and have had confusion as a result. Are both uses = =3D of the term "dispersive" correct? The explanation of how to measure dispersion (S21 magnitude) implies you = =3D believe "dispersion" and what I would have termed "effects of conductor = =3D and dielectric losses" are the same. I have trouble with that, since = =3D stripline insertion loss magnitude definitely varies with F, and that = =3D effect is explained without dispersion. I believe "dispersion" is a =3D separate effect than conductor and dielectric losses. The only tie =3D between them that I've heard of is that Steve Corey (who I am loath to = =3D contradict) stated "if a material is dispersive, it is also lossy". It = =3D may be that the converse holds (if a material is lossy, it is also =3D dispersive), but I believe the 2 effects are separate (even if one can't = =3D occur without the other). Maybe Steve would clarify this? I couldn't follow the explanation of "knobbing" electrical delays until = =3D S21 phase is flat. Is that legal? ;-) Jeff Loyer -----Original Message----- From: C Deibele [mailto:deibele@xxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 10:20 AM To: dgun@xxxxxxxxxx; si-list Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: Dispersion Dispersion can mean a myriad of things. The discussion about phase is correct - namely that the phase changes = =3D linearly=3D20 w.r.t. frequency. but dispersion also manifests itself in the magnitude of the response. = =3D lossy=3D20 materials that have a nice linear phase change are even more dispersive = =3D than=3D20 simple aforementioned phase requirements. a quick way to measure dispersion on a network analyzer is to measure = =3D s21 --=3D20 is the magnitude flat over the frequency range of interest? examine the = =3D phase=3D20 measurement of s21, and knob the electrical delay until it is "flat" in = =3D the=3D20 frequency range of interest. if it is not "flat," then you have =3D dispersion. =3D20 If the phase is "flat" and does not lie at zero or 180 degrees, then the = =3D device distorts as well. -craig >=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D Original Message From dgun@xxxxxxxxxx = =3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D >Jeff, > >1) ADS can simulate dispersion. However, not all models include =3D dispersion. =3D20 You must check the documentation to found out what models include =3D dispersion=3D20 and what dispersion model is used. In ADS2002 (don't know about earlier = =3D versions), you can >choose between three different dispersion models for microstrip lines. > >2) You are correct that a non-dispersive transmission line should show = =3D linear=3D20 phase response over all frequencies. Therefore, one way to measure =3D dispersion=3D20 is to take the derivative of the phase response with respect to =3D frequency=3D20 ("group delay" >function). In typical VNA measurements, this derivative can be very = =3D noisy=3D20 (as derivatives typically are) and mask dispersion (watch out for those = =3D -180=3D20 to +180 phase transitions!). You need to carefully smooth the trace. = =3D VNAs=3D20 typically do this by >taking a type of "moving average". > >This method won't really give you an accurate dispersion quantity, but = =3D will=3D20 tell you how dispersive a trace is, and up to what frequency it is =3D relatively=3D20 non-dispersive. > >For typical materials (like FR4 and alumina), microstrip dispersion is = =3D very=3D20 well characterized and formulas abound in literature. > >- Daniel > >From: "Loyer, Jeff" <jeff.loyer@xxxxxxxxx> >> >> Thanks for all the information. Not to beat a dead horse, but can = =3D =3D3D >> someone give me the definitive answers on: >> >> 1) Whether Hspice or ADS can simulate dispersion? >> >> 2) How would dispersion show itself? I would expect to measure the = =3D =3D3D >> effect with a VNA - I would expect my S21 phase rate-of-change to =3D vary =3D3D >> with frequency. I.E., for a non-dispersive medium, S21 phase appears = =3D as =3D3D >> a regular sawtooth. For a dispersive medium, I would expect the =3D period =3D3D >> of that sawtooth to vary with frequency (probably very linearly). Of = =3D =3D3D >> course, it would also be seen on a pulse as a rounding of the edges, = =3D but =3D3D >> it couldn't be separated from loss effects in that case. >> >> Jeff Loyer >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Loyer, Jeff=3D3D20 >> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 9:55 AM >> To: 'lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx'; steven.corey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; >> si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> >> >> I've been trying to better understand dispersion and its effects on = =3D =3D3D >> signal integrity. Allow me to state what I believe, and feel free to = =3D =3D3D >> correct any falacies I've developed (or clarify what I've stated). >> >> 1) The key factor "creating" dispersion is the fact that, for a given = =3D =3D3D >> medium, different frequencies will travel at different velocities. = =3D =3D3D >> I.E., the Er for a material varies, depending on frequency. This =3D same =3D3D >> effect is responsible for prisms' breaking light into its constituent = =3D =3D3D >> components and, interestingly enough, causes distortion of earthquake = =3D =3D3D >> waves as they travel through the earth. >> >> 2) I've heard the term associated with microstrip, but don't know why = =3D it =3D3D >> couldn't be present in stripline. >> >> 3) The net effect on our (digital S.I. types) signals of interest =3D would =3D3D >> be that a pulse would appear rounded after passing through a =3D dispersive =3D3D >> medium. >> >> 3) I don't think Hspice can simulate this phenomena, and I don't know = =3D if =3D3D >> ADS can, either. >> >> 4) The way I would expect to measure the effect would be with a VNA - = =3D I =3D3D >> would expect my S21 phase rate-of-change to vary with frequency. =3D I.E., =3D3D >> for a non-dispersive medium, S21 phase appears as a regular sawtooth. = =3D =3D3D >> For a dispersive medium, I would expect the period of that sawtooth = =3D to =3D3D >> vary with frequency (probably very linearly). I haven't measured the = =3D =3D3D >> effect this way (that I know of, it might have been too subtle for me = =3D to =3D3D >> notice), nor have I seen data demonstrating the effect. >> >> I would love clarification on the terms "medium dispersion" vs. "wave = =3D =3D3D >> dispersion" vs "phase dispersion". I thought there was only a single = =3D =3D3D >> dispersion effect of phase velocities being different for different = =3D =3D3D >> frequencies. >> >> Thanks for your insights... >> >> Jeff Loyer >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Xin Wu [mailto:lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:54 AM >> To: steven.corey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> >> >> >> Steve, it is not a good idea to mix things together. Wave =3D dispersion=3D3D20 >> definitely has nothing to do with loss, conceptually. Dispersion is = =3D =3D3D >> related=3D3D20 >> to phase velocity, but the loss is related to energy. Of cause, =3D because=3D3D20 >> signal pulse consists of a bunch of frequency components, =3D different=3D3D20 >> components propagate at different speed, this makes the pulse shape = =3D =3D3D >> change=3D3D20 >> at the reception. However, the total energy of the pulse won't =3D be=3D3D20 >> dissipated. Dispersion of medium is another concept. If we talking = =3D about =3D3D >> a=3D3D20 >> dispersive medium, this means that the dielectric constant of the =3D medium =3D3D >> is=3D3D20 >> frequency dependent, the medium is dispersive. Kramer Kronig =3D3D >> relationship is=3D3D20 >> to explain the medium dispersion rather than wave dispersion. >> Of cause, when the medium is frequency dependent, both wave =3D dispersion =3D3D >> and=3D3D20 >> signal loss will be happening. >> >> >> >> >> >> Xin Wu >> Ph.D student, >> University of Maryland, College Park >> Http://www.wam.umd.edu/~xwu >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >From: Steve Corey <steven.corey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> >Reply-To: steven.corey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> >Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 16:44:28 -0800 >> > >> > >> >This illustrates an interesting point, which is that if you have >> >dispersion, then you have to have frequency-dependent losses as =3D well. >> >The Kramers-Kronig relationship (a.k.a. causality) states that the = =3D real >> >part and the imaginary parts of the dielectric constant are tightly >> >related to each other. As a result, frequency-dependent phase =3D velocity >> >is always accompanied by frequency-dependent attenuation, and vice >> >versa. So you can easily make the argument that describing =3D something =3D3D >> as >> >"dispersive" is the same as describing it as "lossy". >> > >> >Yu Liu wrote: >> > >> > > Jeff, >> > > >> > > By definition, I think dispersive effect is the frequency-related = =3D =3D3D >> effect >> > > (phase velocities at different spectrums). However, since the = =3D =3D3D >> losses >> > > are also frequency-dependent, sometimes people just use the term >> > > interchangbly, which causes confusions. Distinguish the two terms >> > > (dispersive and loss) would make things clearer. >> > > >> > > Yu >> > > =3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D >> > > >> > > Loyer, Jeff wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > >>Yu, >> > >>When you use the term "dispersive", are you talking about =3D losses=3D3D20 >> >(resistive, skin effect, dielectric), or about differences in =3D phase=3D3D20 >> >velocities (page 170 of Pozar's book)? I've heard others refer to = =3D loss =3D3D >> >> >effects as dispersive and have had confusion as a result. Are both = =3D =3D3D >> uses of=3D3D20 >> >the term "dispersive" correct? >> > >> >> > >>Jeff Loyer >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>-----Original Message----- >> > >>From: Yu Liu [mailto:yu_liu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >> > >>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:32 PM >> > >>To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx >> > >>Cc: 'Xin Wu'; si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>Mick, >> > >> >> > >>To answer your question: In theory, Yes. In practice, No. >> > >> >> > >>The fundamental principle for SPICE model approach is using =3D lumped >> > >>elements (RLC) to model distributed effect (S-parameter). For =3D lower >> > >>frequency and small size, it is possible. But for broad-band = =3D3D >> frequency >> > >>and large size (say, 20' FR-4), it is very hard to model the = =3D3D >> dispersive >> > >>effects accurately. That's why people start to use =3D3D >> frequency-dependent >> > >>elements, or better yet, import S-parameter directly into Spice = =3D =3D3D >> engine. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>Regards, >> > >> >> > >>Yu >> > >>=3D3D3D=3D3D3D=3D3D3D >> > >> >> > >>Apache Design Solutions >> > >>web: www.apache-da.com >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>>Xin Wu >> > >>> >> > >>>Thanks for your information. It will be valuable. >> > >>>However, it still contains something like (from the example on = =3D the =3D3D >> web=3D3D20 >> >you >> > >>>referred) >> > >>> >> > >>>E11 11 12 FREQ {V(10,5)}=3D3D3D >> > >>> >> > >>>which will not be accepted by some circuit simulators such as = =3D ADS. =3D3D >> It=3D3D20 >> >is >> > >>>similar to Ansoft fullwave SPICE. I know HSPICE and PSPICE can = =3D =3D3D >> handle=3D3D20 >> >it. >> > >>> >> > >>>Although it is still a research topic in terms of efficiency, = =3D =3D3D >> stability=3D3D20 >> >and >> > >>>accuracy etc., I know the problem [S] ---> SPICE model (reduced = =3D =3D3D >> models)=3D3D20 >> >is >> > >>>solvable without the following limitations in several ways. But, = =3D =3D3D >> can we >> > >>>generate broadband SPICE models without frequency dependent =3D lookup=3D3D20 >> >tables >> > >>>such as " FREQ " ? Or is it still solvable without components = =3D =3D3D >> "FREQ"=3D3D20 >> >etc. ? >> > >>> >> > >>>Regards, >> > >>> >> > >>>Mick >> > >>> >> > >>>-----Original Message----- >> > >>>From: Xin Wu [mailto:lifehappiest@xxxxxxxxxxx] >> > >>>Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:38 PM >> > >>>To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx; xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx >> > >>>Cc: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>>Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>Hi, XL, >> > >>> If you want to convert S-matrix into a spice simulator, a lot = =3D of >> > >>>commercial software can do that--that's the simplest way. =3D However, =3D3D >> it=3D3D20 >> >is >> > >>>possible for yourself to make a equivalent subcircuit which can = =3D =3D3D >> include=3D3D20 >> >the >> > >>>timing and frequency info and then import to a spice like =3D3D >> simulator.=3D3D20 >> >Here >> > >>>are some application notes: >> > >>>http://wwwinfo.cern.ch/ce/ae/Maxwell/apps/2stripem/2stripem.html >> > >>>If you want to get involved in more details, I remembered that = =3D =3D3D >> somebody=3D3D20 >> >did >> > >>>his Ph.D work on this in UIUC around early 1990s'. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>Xin Wu >> > >>>Ph.D student, >> > >>>University of Maryland, College Park >> > >>>Http://www.wam.umd.edu/~xwu >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>>From: "Scott McMorrow" <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > >>>>Reply-To: scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> > >>>>To: xlzhou@xxxxxxxxx >> > >>>>CC: "'si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx'" <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> > >>>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: (no subject) >> > >>>>Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 13:45:41 -0800 >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>Mick, >> > >>>> >> > >>>>There are two solutions which I use: >> > >>>> >> > >>>>1) Apache Nspice is an Hspice compatabible simulator that can >> > >>>>co-simulate with Touchstone S-parameter files. >> > >>>>http://www.apache-da.com/ >> > >>>> >> > >>>>2) Sigrity BroadBand Spice can convert Touchstone s-parameter = =3D =3D3D >> files=3D3D20 >> >into >> > >>>>spice black boxes. >> > >>>>http://www.sigrity.com/ >> > >>>> >> > >>>>Both are scary accurate in both the frequency and time domain. >> > >>>> >> > >>>>regards, >> > >>>> >> > >>>>scott >> > >>>> >> > >>>>-- >> > >>>>Scott McMorrow >> > >>>>Teraspeed Consulting Group LLC >> > >>>>2926 SE Yamhill St. >> > >>>>Portland, OR 97214 >> > >>>>(503) 239-5536 >> > >>>>http://www.teraspeed.com >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>Zhou, Xingling (Mick) wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>>Hello, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>Did anybody successfully generate broadband (DC-20GHz) SPICE = =3D =3D3D >> model=3D3D20 >> >from S >> > >>>>>matrix for complex structures using the SPICE generator in ADS = =3D ? =3D3D >> Or=3D3D20 >> >any >> > >>>>>other alternatives. I know Ansoft fullwave SPICE does the =3D work. >> > >>>>>Unfortunately, some circuit simulators do not support the = =3D3D >> frequency >> > >>>>>dependent lookup table sources. We can definitely use [S] = =3D3D >> directly,=3D3D20 >> >but >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>some >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>>>users still prefer SPICE models. Any experience to share ? >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>Thanks, >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>Xingling(Mick) Zhou, PhD >> > >>>>>Signal Integrity Technologist >> > >>>>>Agere Systems >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>Tel: 610-712-7462 >> > >>>>>Fax: 610-712-4081 >> > >>>>> >> > =3D3D >> =3D >>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >>>>>To unsubscribe from si-list: >> > >>>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the =3D Subject =3D3D >> field >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> > >>>>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>For help: >> > >>>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>>List archives are viewable at: >> > >>>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> > >>>>>or at our remote archives: >> > >>>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> > >>>>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > >>>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > =3D >>>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >>>>To unsubscribe from si-list: >> > >>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D =3D3D >> field >> > >>>> >> > >>>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> > >>>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > >>>> >> > >>>>For help: >> > >>>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > >>>> >> > >>>>List archives are viewable at: >> > >>>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> > >>>>or at our remote archives: >> > >>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> > >>>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > >>>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > =3D >>>_________________________________________________________________ >> > >>>Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. >> > >>>http://join.msn.com/?page=3D3D3Dfeatures/featuredemail >> > =3D >>>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >>>To unsubscribe from si-list: >> > >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D =3D3D >> field >> > >>> >> > >>>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> > >>>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > >>> >> > >>>For help: >> > >>>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > >>> >> > >>>List archives are viewable at: >> > >>> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> > >>>or at our remote archives: >> > >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> > >>>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > >>> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>>. >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> >> > =3D >>------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > >>To unsubscribe from si-list: >> > >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D =3D3D >> field >> > >> >> > >>or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> > >>//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > >> >> > >>For help: >> > >>si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > >> >> > >>List archives are viewable at: >> > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> > >>or at our remote archives: >> > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> > >>Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > >> >> > >> >> > >>. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > =3D ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > > To unsubscribe from si-list: >> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject = =3D =3D3D >> field >> > > >> > > or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> > > //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > > >> > > For help: >> > > si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > > >> > > List archives are viewable at: >> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> > > or at our remote archives: >> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> > > Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> >-- >> >------------------------------------------- >> >Steven D. Corey, Ph.D. >> >Time Domain Analysis Systems, Inc. >> >"The Interconnect Modeling Company." >> >http://www.tdasystems.com >> > >> >email: steven.corey@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> >phone: (503) 246-2272 >> >fax: (503) 246-2282 >> >------------------------------------------- >> > >> >------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >To unsubscribe from si-list: >> >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject =3D field >> > >> >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> > >> >For help: >> >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> > >> >List archives are viewable at: >> > //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> >or at our remote archives: >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> >Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> > >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months = FREE*=3D3D20 >> http://join.msn.com/?page=3D3D3Dfeatures/junkmail >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> List archives are viewable at: =3D3D20 >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages=3D3D20 >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> =3D3D20 >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> To unsubscribe from si-list: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field >> >> or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >> //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list >> >> For help: >> si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field >> >> List archives are viewable at: >> //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list >> or at our remote archives: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages >> Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: >> http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu >> >> > > > >-- >Daniel >ZZZ-dgun-ZZZ-@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >(remove the Z-'s to reply--they're what I do when I read spam) > >-- >__________________________________________________________ >Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com >http://www.mail.com/?sr=3D3Dsignup > >One click access to the Top Search Engines >http://www.exactsearchbar.com/mailcom > >------------------------------------------------------------------ >To unsubscribe from si-list: >si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field > >or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: >//www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list > 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viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu ------------------------------------------------------------------ To unsubscribe from si-list: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'unsubscribe' in the Subject field or to administer your membership from a web page, go to: //www.freelists.org/webpage/si-list For help: si-list-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with 'help' in the Subject field List archives are viewable at: //www.freelists.org/archives/si-list or at our remote archives: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/si-list/messages Old (prior to June 6, 2001) list archives are viewable at: http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu