[SI-LIST] Re: Caution Spam:Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Boar d Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
- From: "Ingo Kupper" <ingo.kupper@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2005 10:32:13 -0800
Dear SI fellows,
I think, we've beaten the dead horse enough - unless we want to expand
the SI list as a general bulletin board?
I know, I know, I can press the 'delete' key and I did it already after
reading the first few posts.
So, let's call it a day and Happy Thanksgiving!
Cheers,
Ingo
(real name!)
>>IK:-----Original Message-----
>>IK:From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>>IK:[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of James Freeman
>>IK:Sent: Wednesday, 23 November, 2005 10:25
>>IK:To: weirsi@xxxxxxxxxx
>>IK:Cc: julian.ferry@xxxxxxxxxx; twesterh@xxxxxxxxx;=20
>>IK:si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>IK:Subject: Caution Spam:[SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest=20
>>IK:is GOOD/BAD Tool for Boar d Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>IK:
>>IK:Hi All,
>>IK: I think it is a marketing ploy to develop damaging info=20
>>IK:on a particular tool.
>>IK:
>>IK:Thanks
>>IK:Jim Freeman
>>IK:
>>IK:steve weir wrote:
>>IK:> Julian, I don't think we are dealing with an engineer=20
>>IK:here at all. =20
>>IK:> Engineers look for solutions. This guy is clearly=20
>>IK:looking for blame. =20
>>IK:> I think our mystery guest is a lawyer trying to develop=20
>>IK:evidence for=20
>>IK:> some lawsuit. Never does he ask for work-arounds to any=20
>>IK:problems. =20
>>IK:> Never does he ask for alternative programs if SQ is not=20
>>IK:a good enough=20
>>IK:> answer. Never does he offer a single case to back up=20
>>IK:his allegation=20
>>IK:> that SQ is useless. But what he does do is dance,=20
>>IK:dance, dance, never=20
>>IK:> losing sight of his theme: "Give me evidence in the form=20
>>IK:of expert testimony."
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> First he lobs his charges that the product is unusable. Then he=20
>>IK:> feigns a claim that he wants to be fair. First he claims he is=20
>>IK:> interested in the tool for his own work. Then later he=20
>>IK:claims he is researching for a
>>IK:> client. Hmm, he is not the originator, but he feels HE=20
>>IK:needs to be=20
>>IK:> anonymous. Right! And the Plutoxin 7 virus kills in ten hours.
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> But like a diligent inquisitor our mystery guest always=20
>>IK:comes back to=20
>>IK:> his
>>IK:> theme: "Give me evidence of a product defect." More=20
>>IK:importantly, he=20
>>IK:> is not interested in what any issue might be large or=20
>>IK:small, specific=20
>>IK:> or general, only that it can be "reproduced/verified",=20
>>IK:as in it has=20
>>IK:> evidentiary value. He implores the timid: "If my=20
>>IK:obvious duplicity=20
>>IK:> makes you feel nervous, you can slip your evidence right=20
>>IK:here under=20
>>IK:> the rock I just crawled out from under. Just look for=20
>>IK:the one with=20
>>IK:> the oozing stench. In the meantime, I will be billing=20
>>IK:my client $450.=20
>>IK:> per hour. Thanks for all the fish."
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> Don't we have some Cadence people on the reflector? I=20
>>IK:suggest they=20
>>IK:> forward our mystery guests posts to their legal dept.
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> Regards,
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> Steve.
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:> At 10:53 AM 11/23/2005 -0500, Julian Ferry wrote:
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:>>Maybe I'll add something here too. In our SI work, we=20
>>IK:use simulators=20
>>IK:>>like SpectraQuest (or whatever its called this week),=20
>>IK:Hspice, Pspice,=20
>>IK:>>Berkeley spice, and Eagleware/Agilent; field solvers=20
>>IK:from Ansoft,=20
>>IK:>>CST, Flowmerics, and a couple other vendors; and model=20
>>IK:extraction =20
>>IK:>>and simulation software
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:>>from TDA Systems/Tektronix, and Agilent; and some stuff=20
>>IK:of our own creation.
>>IK:>=20
>>IK:>>And I'm probably forgetting a few.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>And to be blunt: they all suck!
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Every single package has problems and issues that need to be=20
>>IK:>>discovered, understood, and worked around. And each time=20
>>IK:there is a=20
>>IK:>>new rev, we have to go through it all again.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>But we accept the fact that we need to use these tools,=20
>>IK:warts and all,=20
>>IK:>>because they are the best tools currently available to=20
>>IK:us. Hopefully,=20
>>IK:>>six months from now, they'll all be little bit better.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Its very easy to throw stones at the negatives inherent=20
>>IK:to all packages.
>>IK:>>But, at the end of the day, the benefits outweigh the=20
>>IK:frustrations, or=20
>>IK:>>we wouldn't use them at all.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Julian Ferry
>>IK:>>High Speed Engineering Manager
>>IK:>>Samtec, Inc
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>-----Original Message-----
>>IK:>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>>IK:>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Todd=20
>>IK:Westerhoff=20
>>IK:>>(twesterh)
>>IK:>>Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:15 AM
>>IK:>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>IK:>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD=20
>>IK:Tool for Board=20
>>IK:>>Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Mystery Guy, I'm afraid you've missed the point. All=20
>>IK:tools have bugs=20
>>IK:>>and issues - it's just a matter of degree. We're=20
>>IK:talking about a=20
>>IK:>>relatively small market that is using some very complex=20
>>IK:tools. Throw=20
>>IK:>>in the fact that the problem is constantly getting more complex=20
>>IK:>>(speeds go up), and it should be common sense that bugs=20
>>IK:and problems=20
>>IK:>>are going to be an ongoing issue. As others have said,=20
>>IK:using these=20
>>IK:>>tools requires experience and good judgment.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>We've seen issues that could be reproduced, and issues=20
>>IK:that couldn't=20
>>IK:>>be reproduced - with any tool you care to name.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>If you're looking for meaningful input, I suggest you name the=20
>>IK:>>application you're designing to (for instance,=20
>>IK:DDR2-SDRAM/533 MT/s) -=20
>>IK:>>then ask people whether they've been successful with a=20
>>IK:particular tool=20
>>IK:>>and if they know of any "gotchas" should be on the lookout for.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Asking "has anyone heard of problems" via an anonymous=20
>>IK:request just=20
>>IK:>>has a cloak-and-dagger feel to it. This is engineering,=20
>>IK:not drama.
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it,
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Todd. =3D20
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Todd Westerhoff
>>IK:>>High Speed Design Group Manager
>>IK:>>Cisco Systems
>>IK:>>1414 Massachusetts Ave - Boxboro, MA - 01719=20
>>IK:email:twesterh@xxxxxxxxx
>>IK:>>ph: 978-936-2149
>>IK:>>=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=
3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
>>IK:=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D
>>IK:>>3D=3D3D=3D =
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D=
3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
>>IK:>>=3D20
>>IK:>>"Always do right.
>>IK:>> This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
>>IK:>>=3D20
>>IK:>>- Mark Twain
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>-----Original Message-----
>>IK:>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>>IK:>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>IK:>>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>>IK:>>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:36 PM
>>IK:>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>IK:>>Subject: [SI-LIST] Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD=20
>>IK:Tool for Board=20
>>IK:>>Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Please forgive the anonymous aspect of the request. I=20
>>IK:do not wish to=20
>>IK:>>steer the result by way of company name/individual's=20
>>IK:name, nor do I=20
>>IK:>>wish to embarrass the originator of the request. This is not an=20
>>IK:>>attempt to tarnish any tool maker's reputation, and my=20
>>IK:apologies if=20
>>IK:>>the request comes across that way. There is no intended=20
>>IK:assertion=20
>>IK:>>that a problem exists by way of the request itself.
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>> I am asking the SI experts of the world if anyone has=20
>>IK:experienced=20
>>IK:>>issues with SQ that would lead to concern about the=20
>>IK:results. It may=20
>>IK:>>be the case that the answer is no and experts have been=20
>>IK:using this=20
>>IK:>>tool quite extensively, in which case a strong assertion to this=20
>>IK:>>effect would be in order. I am not saying that either=20
>>IK:answer is right=20
>>IK:>>or wrong, but the request was intended to illicit candid=20
>>IK:opinions from the experts.
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>> If you have seen an issue that can be=20
>>IK:reproduced/confirmed, please=20
>>IK:>>feel free to pass along directly if you wish to remain=20
>>IK:anonymous about=20
>>IK:>>this topic.
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>> Thanks for your patience.
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>>Ray Anderson <ray.anderson@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>>The message posted anonymously to the list earlier today=3D20
>>IK:>> =3D20
>>IK:>> (deleted)
>>IK:>>Regards,
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>-Ray Anderson
>>IK:>>(si-list admin)
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>-----Original Message-----
>>IK:>>From: si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
>>IK:>>[mailto:si-list-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>IK:>>On Behalf Of mystery guy
>>IK:>>Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 2:06 PM
>>IK:>>To: si-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>IK:>>Subject: [SI-LIST] HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool=20
>>IK:for Board=20
>>IK:>>Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>Gurus,
>>IK:>>=3D3D20
>>IK:>>I recently heard a fellow say that SpecctraQuest is not=20
>>IK:an acceptable=20
>>IK:>>tool for SI simulation ...........=3D3D20
>>IK:>>
>>IK:>>(remainder deleted)
>>IK:>>
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Other related posts:
- » [SI-LIST] Re: Caution Spam:Re: HELP!! SpecctraQuest is GOOD/BAD Tool for Boar d Level Simulation < 400 MT/s???
