In a message dated 7/7/2005 5:53:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Pinehillgsds writes: I'm sure there's a lot more; somebody else's turn.... Hi Kathy, I want to thank you for giving me really, the most concise answer of any so far! I am happy to hear that a really good dog WILL win in either "venue" because in my mind's eye, that's how it should be! A dog who meets a breed standard as closely as possible SHOULD win in both rings, and GSDs should be no different in this respect than any other breed. I'd hate to feel that I had a dog that was so inferior in some areas that it couldn't possibly compete in one ring or the other, this is actually very worrisome to me. I'm almost starting to get the impression that a lot of GSD folks think that an "all rounder" judge is incapable of properly interpreting the GSD standard. If this is the case, then maybe the standard isn't written clearly enough, and maybe it DOES need to be redone, in order to more clearly explain exactly WHAT a GSD should look like and behave like, so that there is no difference in a specialty or all breed GSD. One of my favorite judges of all times is Marian Hoddeson (SP?). I believe she is/was a GSD person? She is also a wonderful judge of other breeds, including schips. She is a truly GREAT all-rounder. Why shouldn't any other all rounder be capable of being just as good a judge as she? With reference to the "temperament test" thing, the fact is, all dog shows have their own built in "temperament tests". Standards describe the temperaments of the breeds, and so it's one of the "qualities" that should be considered when judging each dog. Without going into details, if a dog doesn't have the "correct temperament" for his/her breed, that's just as serious (if not almost more so) a fault as a bad bite, wrong coat color, etc. From what you said, it actually sounds to me as if the "all breed" dog is a better balance of all things, not just picking on individual preferences so much, but taking into consideration the overall package. I would hope that any time any of us show a dog, it's at their peak condition, and it would be the dog that we feel best represents the breed as a whole, and doesn't just cater to a "movement fanatic", a "tooth fairy", a "head hunter", etc. I know that I will hopefully be able to start showing my young bitch a bit as a youngster, just to give her the ring experience and socialization, but I wouldn't seriously try to "start" her until she's mature enough, and in good enough condition, to represent all her good qualities as best as she is capable of doing. I'm beginning to think that I must prefer the "all breed" dog, as that dog sounds as if in fact, it is the most "balanced" of the two, where all things are considered. Thank you again for taking the time to educate! Lynn Lynn Brown - Ebonystar Schipperkes/Angelsgate Rescue http://www.angelsgaterescue.com/ & http://www.schipperkerescue.com/ Post Office Box 92283 - Long Beach, CA 90809 (562) 428-9832 ...special dogs for special people since 1972 ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2005. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================