This will probably get me in trouble with some, but again, it's what I believe. And I believe..."It's what's up front that counts!" In other words, I believe that the sire and the dam are approximately 80% of the resulting litter, and the grand sire and dam another 15% of the results, and remaining 5%...credit whomever. Going back 5 generations to see what's what (again in my opinion) is a waste of time. To be even more controversial, I believe that usually the dam is 60% of the progeny and the sire 40%. ( That's of the 80%) The better the bitch, the better the litter. A hundred years ago I did a research project using the Red Books to prove that theory. I proved it, but again it's common sense. Lloyd Brackett said, "Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam" ( or visa versa) which is: linebreed 2-3. I did that at least 25 times and I still believe that it's what's up front that counts. OK, said my piece. I won't be at work tomorrow to read the replies but I bet they'll be fun. Helen Franklin ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2004. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. NO REPRODUCTIONS or FORWARDS of any kind are permitted without prior permission of the original author AND of the Showgsd-l Management. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. ALL PERSONS ARE ON NOTICE THAT THE FORWARDING, REPRODUCTION OR USE IN ANY MANNER OF ANY MATERIAL WHICH APPEARS ON SHOWGSD-L WITHOUT THE EXPRESS PERMISSION OF ALL PARTIES TO THE POST AND THE LIST MANAGEMENT IS EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN, AND IS A VIOLATION OF LAW. VIOLATORS OF THIS PROHIBITION WILL BE PROSECUTED. For assistance, please contact the List Management at admin@xxxxxxxxxxxx VISIT OUR WEBSITE - http://www.showgsd.org ============================================================================