Carolyn, excellent post. To answer your question: "I know we need something......but I have no answers in a law suit world......to those that do .......lets hear it." Actually I think it's an EASY fix. Right above where a person signs, there needs to be a paragraph that says that in the case of disputes a review committee will have the final say and that <by signing below> the member agrees to abide by the review committee's decision and in all cases indemnify the committee members and the PC and hold them harmless. We have enough attorneys around that can get the verbiage right <G>. And as far as "or cannot be enforced when someone abuses it......." That's easy too IMO. You set up a review committee, the person filing the complaints puts their grievance in writing, a copy is sent to the party involved and they have 30 days to respond. The committee is provided copies of any and all documents and meets telephonically once a quarter. Both parties are notified in writing of the decision (say within 10 days) following the review. In cases where it is deemed necessary that some action/sanction needs to be taken, there needs to be a deadline for the action and after that, whatever penalty is imposed...happens (i.e. no longer a signer in good standing). It's not on Jamie's plate to review/police anything unless she receives a complaint. I also want to point out (and I do something very similar on conference calls every Tuesday & Thursday) that only complaints that have something to do w/ the actual code (breeders, or proposed code of ethics) should/would be considered by committee. "My dog has a questionable temperament", "ears didn't come up", "isn't a super star", "developed a health issue later on" would be heard, but IMO would all receive a similar form letter that their grievance isn't one that is covered by the BC or newly proposed general code of ethics. In fact, in the real world, contracts have limitations and a review committee cannot enforce a guarantee where none existed. BTW, re the rest of the questions below, there's nothing in the current code that says anything about early spay/neuter and in fact you can breed a bitch as often as you like. Over three times in a row needs to be vet recommended, quoting "never permitting them to produce three consecutive litters unless breeding consecutive litters is recommended by a veterinarian." Many other clubs have worked this out. I know Jamie worked hard on proposed changes and I certainly hope we can get it all worked out too. Kathy, member GSDCA, DVGSDC Celebrating generations of Dual Titled TC'd Champions visit www.geocities.com/pinehillgsds In a message dated 5/15/2009 2:49:59 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx writes: Jamie worked very hard on the Breeders Code.......and she was disappointed and discouraged when no action was taken.........we all were...... but there is always questions to consider and no one has the answers. The problem is that it is pointless to have one that no one will sign .......or cannot be enforced when someone abuses it.......or have some sign it but not abide by it just so they can advertise or become a member of a Club for appearance of respectability. The Board, or the Club, or the Chair policing it is the problem. Just think about it.......how can we? I believe some of the ideas suggested a huge puppy mill could sign..... and still function as a huge puppy mill. It does not change the quality or health of the pets or show dogs placed nor the huge volume of dogs kept, nor the quality of the Breeder / seller nor their honesty and love and care of the dogs if you really look at it. It is a piece of paper.......only as good as the Breeders word and integrity. SO........you have all your pet puppies spayed and neutered within a certain age, ( I personally do not want our pet buyers to spay or neuter early .....) and you only breed your bitch every 3rd season, and buyers have a puppy examined by a Vet within 72 hrs.... but your sales contract could be useless when a real problem arises for the buyer or the pup anyway......or the breeder may be one who does not care or co-operate after that time frame. (..what happens a week or months later if the puppy has problems ) Already many are already going to another source besides OFA, etc......AND.... you could still breed a bitch in hideous health or quality or temperament as long as there were 2 seasons in between? And who decides what is a "quality" breeding is .....or is a genetic issue to disqualify any dog as a quality animal for breeding....or keeps tabs on how often a bitch is bred.....or decides if the dog has had enough socialization and exposure as compared to sitting in a kennel too much. The Board? Jamie? My point is......If it is not enforceable.... how can it be used just to advertise. There are other forms of advertisement that do not require it anyway......and again.....how do we as a Board police it if we do pass it? Reasonable Suggestions appreciated......? Bottom line.........it will not make a good honest concerned caring Breeder better.....and not signing will not make them not. It just puts a lot of responsiblity on those of us who would have to enforce it. As one person suggested.......I like the idea of a Code of Ethics before someone joins the Club to begin with. I know we need something......but I have no answers in a law suit world......to those that do .......lets hear it. Carolyn marhaven@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx www.Marhaven.com From: Sally Hayden To: Pinehillgsds@xxxxxxx ; showgsd-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 10:06 AM Subject: [ SHOWGSD-L ] Re: was ADVERTISING PC WEBSITE, question, Breeder's Code What bothers me about this discussion is that we have been thru this multiple times. Jamie wanted to tighten up the loop wholes and put some strength in it and at the time it kept getting rejected. As I remember Jamie worked very hard on this for a long time and took a lot of suggestions from the membership only to have it rejected by the board. So unless the board is willing to back a change it is going no where Sally www.embroiderybysally.org ============================================================================ POST is Copyrighted 2008. All material remains the property of the original author and of GSD Communication, Inc. 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