Hello Rich:
If the following isn’t true, please someone correct me.
The back pads haven’t had blocks or something like that for as long as I’ve
been going. So, over 12 years for sure. I was taught that you could put your
weight on the back tripod leg on these pads when you were sitting it up and it
sinking into the playa would help lean the pads back. Interestingly, this
became easier in recent years. :-/ People routinely adjust the rails and rods
to vertical, sometimes immediately when the range opens.
I’m not sure if I made the last set of blocks for the middle pads or Kurt did.
Anyway there are blocks. I even painted them red so you could see them better
from the LCO table. Again, the pads are set up with blocks and then they are
routinely removed by flyers during the launch. People use them to adjust for
wind and even set them so the pads are leaning toward the flight line. Maybe
they want to recover their rocket and visit the portable toilets on the same
trip.
The Pad Manager assigns pads and doesn’t supervise the pads much, particularly
at large launches. TRA came out with a policy that the PM needed to assure
that pads lean back. Sorry, are you kidding me. There are pad assistants and
of course the RSO. Keep in mind that the RSO isn’t the rocket inspector that
sat at a table with their back to the range like they used to. The RSO now
actually helps with range safety. I suggest anyone that thinks my observations
and suggestions on range safety sound wild look back at my posts on the
responsibilities of the RSO. You’ll have to go way back in chat for these.
And, for the model rockets, the swing arm fittings for each of the pads has
been removed. All the rods are vertical. But, the PVC pads I made (I can’t
remember how long ago) were suppose to be replaced with individual pads that
could be adjusted. The fittings were loose/worn. Again, the PVC pads where
only intended to last about 1 year.
All the pads could be made so the rail/rod leans away far enough from the
spectator area to assure that a trajectory over people would become a rare
thing. Yes, there are skywriters and all sorts of unstable/unsafe rockets.
I’m speaking of stable rocket flights, which fortunately are most flights.
I believe the main problem with not spending adequate time watching rockets
during flight is the pressure to keep the wait short and launch many rockets.
Richard Dierking
I’m thinking about what you said David...
On Dec 17, 2018, at 5:43 PM, Rich Silva
<richsilv@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:richsilv@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Much better put than my maunderings…
From: roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> On Behalf
Of David Erbas-White
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 4:52 PM
To: roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [roc-chat] Re: Range Management and Complex Rockets
On 12/17/2018 3:33 PM, R Dierking wrote:
Well, my arrows always go where I expect them to go... I can't say the same
for my rockets...
It's an unsolvable problem, overall. Every month, I see the range crew
diligently placing the pads, and absolutely ensuring that the rods are angled.
And immediately thereafter, I see folks come up and point their rod off in some
other direction (note: I didn't say an UNSAFE direction, a said ANOTHER
direction). Sometimes it's TARC students who 'think' they're correcting the
height of their launch to hit the goal. Sometimes it's rocketeers (veterans
and newbies alike) who are absolutely convinced that the god of wind has
whispered in their ear and told them where he(she/it) is going to carry their
rocket. Sometimes it's just someone who wants a good 'angle' for a photo.
Bottom line, is REALISTICALLY it's impossible to police all of that, absolutely
accurately, for every single launch. And we haven't even got into
weather-cocking, rod whip, low-powered engines, mis-aligned fins, sticking
launch lugs, or phase of the moon. And with the way the wind can shift at
Lucerne, we would need to mount each group of pads on a 50' diameter carousel
to rotate them as the wind angle shifts during the day, if we REALLY wanted to
do things right...
We can, and DO, use realistic launch distances (pad to pad, group to group,
etc.). We call out any launch angles that we spot as incorrect if
viewed/viewable before launch. We use a PA system with speakers all over the
place. And yet we can STILL have occasional issues...
My own belief is we have a pretty darn good system, that needs a few tweaks.
Tweak one I've already suggested - add a spotter (and yes, that's a manpower
issue). Tweak two is a subtlety - I'd be in favor of adding some radios to our
setup, just a few, and issue them to folks who are recovering rockets on the
lakebed. That way the LCO or RSO can make a general call to those on the
lakebed that a rocket might be coming in (it's surprising how quickly the PA
system quiets down when you're far enough way). I'd say that about once a year
I have a rocket hit the dirt within 10 feet or so of me when I've been out
searching/recovering a rocket (I'm talking mid/high power, not low power). In
each case I would have had a nasty headache, but probably no major injury, if
there had been contact, so I chalk it up to the 'cost of doing business' - but
I'm reasonably certain that someone at the rangehead had seen the rocket and
likely gave a PA announcement, and I was just too far away to hear it. Other
tweaks that I've complained about in the past have largely been resolved - for
example, I'm far more apt to hear folks chime in if there's any hint of an
airplane in the vicinity than formerly, and that's a real good thing. And the
general concern and recognition regarding safety has gone up tremendously (not
that it was ever bad, but it's much more recognizable).
I just don't think it can be bubble-wrapped. Bottom line, use common sense
(and as I write this, I'm wearing a T-shirt that says "Common Sense should be
considered a Super Power"... <G>). Call out folks that you see doing stupid
things. ACCEPT the fact that somebody might call you out (either correctly or
incorrectly) for something that is perceived as unsafe, and either correct it,
or explain to the dunderhead why it's actually safe. But I stand by my belief
that (currently) our biggest problem is not seeing the rocket, or the
deployment even, or whatever, and then not following through.
Over to you for rebuttal...
David Erbas-White
Good point David. I didn’t consider the Spotter. Having a Spotter for each
launch is a nice addition. For rockets seen as coming in hot near people, we
tried the loud warning horn and of course announcing the "heads up” and trying
to get many people pointing at the rocket. This is good. But, as we have
experienced, it can be difficult to get attention quickly, and these things
develop very quickly - like <5 seconds. I think silence works best while the
sky is being watched by many people; not talking about the next rocket and
having people looking out on the range. Breaking silence gets people’s
attention quickly. Even if it’s the Spotter that sees the rocket first.
Leaning rockets and providing enough time while launching and watching rockets
are important together. Assuring that rockets are taking a trajectory away
from people also provides some reassurance that a rocket coming in hot will not
do this unexpectedly.
Let's go with my bow and arrow analogy again. I know that David is also an
archer and appreciates this. If I ‘launched’ many of my arrows away from the
spectator area, say at 10 degrees and one right after another. This certainly
not be as worrisome as taking random trajectories from vertical. If we know
the general direction that the arrows are taking, it makes them much easier to
watch. Same with rockets. If you are right under one, there’s not much to see.
So, what do you think David? Am I making a good case for assuring that rockets
take a trajectory away from people and that we must be vigilant in watching for
rockets after they are launched?
BTW: this doesn’t place much importance on the line and people waiting to
launch their rockets. But, I think if rockets were always launched away from
people this could actually speed the launching process and do it safely.
Richard Dierking
On Dec 17, 2018, at 2:13 PM, David Erbas-White
<derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:derbas@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
On 12/17/2018 12:29 PM, R Dierking wrote:
From my perspective, I think you're approaching this incorrectly. The only
reason you would need to wait is because nobody (and I mean NOBODY) has eyes on
the rocket. I've seen that happen FAR too often. It's not something the LCO
or RSO or Pad Manager can do, they're busy with other tasks. What is really
needed is some kind of observer, with a pair of zoomable binoculars (and an
already good set of eyes, which leaves me WAAAYYY out), to keep eyes on the
rocket until the main deploys. Which brings up another point - during launch,
we should make a bigger point of whether or not a rocket is dual deploy (or
not). We mention it in passing, but we don't really make a point of it, as in
"the next rocket is dual-deploy, which means even if it comes down under
drogue, you're not going to see it until it bonks you on the head if the main
fails to open...".
You are also well aware of other comments I've made in the past about issues
with safety, which I will summarize as "folks should be proceeding through
rocketry in an orderly pace in order to gain experience, which is likely longer
than a short period of time, such as, oh, I don't know, let's call it a
'semester'..."
David Erbas-White
Thank you Cris!!! Yes, I suggest watching the clock for 25 seconds and
thinking, do we wait this long?
And, some people use really small drogues. My rockets come down close to 200
fps. Adding the time when the rocket is no longer seen and bumping over apogee
it’s like a minute before you would see it again. Would it hurt getting hit by
a 5 lb. rocket going 200 fps? This is why rockets must take a significant
trajectory away from people and all their stuff. If people are not always
doing this, then it must be assured.
The Board is doing things to help with this, and I know it. I appreciate it.
I don’t think it’s enough. A long time ago when I played football, my coach
used to say I wasn’t trying enough. I thought, dang, really! But, that was a
football coach and this is me. ;-). Is there any wonder why there’s resentment
at times when I bring stuff like this up.
This is important. The consequences are too great. Like TRA President Steve
Shannon said, “Don’t accept as conventional wisdom that rockets are going to
cross the flight line."
Richard Dierking
On Dec 17, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Cris Erving
<cris.erving@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:cris.erving@xxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
From the (fortunately few) ballistic recoveries that I have had, I have been
able to get altimeter data from them and the terminal velocity of the rockets
was in the 400 fps range. So, your rocket coming down ballistic from a 10,000'
apogee would be down in something a bit more than 25 seconds... that's a lot
more than 10 seconds, for sure.
Eggtimer Cris
________________________________
From: roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
<roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf
of R Dierking <applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:applerocketry@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2018 11:23 AM
To: roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [roc-chat] Re: Range Management and Complex Rockets
Yes, I agree. And, if we had more reassurance that rockets took trajectories
away from the spectator area (people!) then that would help.
Think about this; if rockets were consistently positioned that they took
trajectories away from the flight line even night launches would be safer. If
you saw rockets flying away from the spectator area all day, wouldn’t there be
more comfort with the night launches?
And, this goes for all rockets including model rockets.
Here’s what I do and I’m curious what other people do. I’ve confirmed that it
works btw by predicting then comparing with the result. I use trig to figure
out the launch angle. Yes, you have to start with a stable rocket and not
launch under some crazy condition. I think that launching when the wind is
around 20 mph is crazy. My maximum is 10 mph. First, I think about how far
away from the pad I want the rocket to be at apogee. Say, 400’ or 500’. Then,
I look at the sim’d altitude, say 8000’. Using these two estimates and the
arctan function, you can calculate the angle of the rail away from the flight
line. (You can also use arccos(x) btw, I just used arctan(x)). You will find
that the angle is probably more than you would guess. And that’s just it.
When you ask someone to lean the rod/rail away from the flight line and they
use 2 degrees or miss completely because it’s difficult to judge if you are not
used to it.
I’m disappointed that no one answered the question of how long it takes for a
rocket to descend from 10,000’ without deployment. I’ve been at launches just
like the rest of you when a rocket is launched and disappears with no event and
people wait like 10 seconds (I’ve counted) and say “well, it’s down by now.”
Hum, really? How about, it could be really accelerating right now so everyone
should be focused on the sky above them.
Richard Dierking
On Dec 17, 2018, at 10:51 AM, Duvall, Rick
<RDuVall@xxxxxxx<mailto:RDuVall@xxxxxxx>> wrote:
Richard,
My point is that generally a rocket with a fully deployed recovery system does
not need to be watched all the way to the ground. Once there is an unverified
deployment, we wait until it is verified or enough time to return to earth.
Large rockets under chute heading to the spectator area would pause launching
as well.
I believe we are basically in agreement. An “as expected” launch away from the
spectator area does not need to hold up other launches.
Rick
From: roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of R Dierking
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2018 7:28 PM
To: roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [roc-chat] Re: Range Management and Complex Rockets
Good question Rick.
I would be more concerned with rockets that were not under drogue/main. How
about this for a partial answer; just because a rocket goes out of sight
doesn’t mean you can launch the next one.
I believe there is a lot of pressure to launch fast. But, if safety is truly
first, the pace of launching is based on how fast rockets can be safely
launched and tracked, not how long the line is. So, if a rocket is launched
and goes out of sight, everyone should be focused on watching for that rocket,
not diverting their focus to the next launch. If many people are looking for
the rocket that was launched, and it happens to be coming down hot in the
spectator area, there’s a much better chance it will be spotted and people
alerted to the danger.
And, how long does it take for a rocket that goes 10,000’ to come down when
there isn’t any deployment? It takes longer than many people guess.
Here’s my analogy. I have a 50# bow and probably could shoot an arrow straight
up to about 400’. If I did this, the arrow would disappear around apogee. If
I shot one up, and immediately said after, OK, now watch this next one,
everyone would think that was really dangerous, right? So, what’s the
difference? Does anyone think an arrow would be more dangerous than a rocket
coming down hot?
I believe that this is the kind of thing that Steve Shannon was speaking about
when mentioning how people start to accept things that are really unacceptable.
Richard Dierking
On Dec 13, 2018, at 4:33 PM, Duvall, Rick
<RDuVall@xxxxxxx<mailto:RDuVall@xxxxxxx>> wrote:
Richard,
Under Launch Management: What do you consider “knowing the fate” of the rocket
being flown? I consider the fate “know” when there is a safe recovery
deployment and a safe decent rate. Would you agree with that determination? I
pride myself on being able to say that as LCO I have had 8 individually
launched rockets safely descending under chute at the same time.
Rick “the lurker” DuVall
From: roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:roc-chat-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of R Dierking
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2018 8:55 AM
To: roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:roc-chat@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] [roc-chat] Range Management and Complex Rockets
I suggest you read the From the President article by Steve Shannon in the Fall
2018 Tripoli Report. It’s good, and I agree with most of the things that Steve
said, but there’s one thing he states that kind of re-ignited my ‘passion’ for
safety, and why we need to change our view. In the article in regards to pad
management, Steve states, “Put a slight tilt on the rails to launch away from
the flight line.” I get what he is saying, but this is not quite correct, and
I believe this has created some confusion. I believe it’s best to say to
position the rail at significant angle so that the trajectory will not be over
people. Here’s why there’s an important difference. Rockets tend to have a
dispersion of flight angles when they leave the pad and rail. It varies with
the rocket, motor, pad, and of course, conditions. I have heard that the rail
was leaned slightly away from the spectator area, but the rocket still flew
over the area. This doesn’t mean that leaning rockets doesn’t work. It only
means the rail was not tilted enough.
I know that people don’t like long chat posts, so I’m going to summarize a bit
and look forward to comments.
Range Management: It’s particularly important at launches that are attended by
unexperienced flyers and spectators that pad rails be leaned away so that
rockets don’t take trajectories over people. This may mean leaning rockets at
angles that people are not used to. This should be continually monitored and
adjusted if necessary. The objective is that a rocket taking a trajectory over
people is a rare occurrence. Further, if leaning away from the spectator area
is not consistently working, someone needs to take a close look at the pads and
rail construction and length.
Launch Management: A new rocket should never be launched until the fate of the
current rocket being flown is known. To launch one rocket right after another
is an extremely dangerous practice.
Complex Rockets: All complex rockets should have a written check off list.
More complex, then longer more detailed list. This should be required at
rocket inspection prior to pad assignment. If a complex rocket must be
recycled, this should only be done under the supervision of the RSO.
Personally, I always consult my check off list first if my rocket needs to be
recycled.
Don’t just say safety first, don’t except things that are not safe, and speak
up when you see something that is wrong. We all make mistakes and need to know
that others are watching out for us. And, sorry if this is raw, but you will
never idiot-proof rocketry, but you can control the idiots.
Richard Dierking
TRA 11366, L3
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