Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
- From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 12:32:47 -0500 (EST)
Hi Richard,
It makes sense that this is a JAWS problem since I would certainly think
that the DiveIntoPython web site had indentation displaying properly to
sighted users. I think it is worth getting to the bottom of this so we
can know what to avoid when displaying Python code on a web page. We
can also report the problem to FS. Can you give us specific URLs of two
pages: one that works and one that does not? Hopefully, we can examine
the source HTML.
Jamal
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007, rrdinger
wrote:
> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 09:17:55 -0800
> From: rrdinger <rrdinger@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
>
> Yes, I have seen indentation levels lost on web pages. I think it is a jaws
> feature. On the thinking like a computer scientist page, python code is
> indented two spaces per level and it displays just fine in jaws. The Diving
> into python web page, however, sometimes does and sometimes does not display
> correctly. Finally, most python books from BookShare (O'Riley) do not
> display correctly (maybe because they are scanned?), but most things can be
> figured out--it just takes a bit of care.
>
> Richard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jamal Mazrui" <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: <programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Monday, December 17, 2007 5:56 AM
> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
>
>
> > Thanks for the feedback, Jim.
> >
> > An advantage of PyBrace over beeps or words that indicate a change of
> > indentation is that a comment is automatically generated that indicates
> > what code block has closed. Thus, one does not have to recall that a
> > "while" was two beeps in and and "if" was one beep.
> >
> > Yes, in EdSharp, Alt+Home goes to the first nonblank character of a line,
> > and indeed, its purpose is to skip over indentation. Home without the Alt
> > modifier key is just easier and more habitual to press, and the purpose of
> > PyBrace is to maximize usability for a speech and keyboard user.
> >
> > Regarding space versus tab for indentation, does one work better when JAWS
> > displays a web page with the virtual buffer? Richard has reported that
> > some Python code loses its indentation in this mode, whereas other
> > indentation is preserved. Obviously, preserving it is important when
> > reading Python code on the web. I was guessing that a tab character was
> > more likely to be preserved than a space, so that was partly why I chose
> > it ininitially, but I was guessing there. To me, tab also makes more
> > sense logically because a single tab character can be used rather than
> > multiple spaces, and the user can often adjust the display width of a tab
> > character in his or her editor. I do recall, however, that Perl style
> > guidelines recommend spaces (4) and Ruby's recommend them as well (2),
> > so it does not surprise me that Python guidelines have developed
> > similarly. I will probably make EdSharp use whatever the user has set for
> > the IndentationUnit in the configuration dialog.
> >
> > To what extent do you use braille when programming in Python?
> >
> > Jamal
> > On Mon, 17 Dec 2007
> > james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >
> >> Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:37:57 -0500
> >> From: james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Reply-To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> To: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: Seeking feedback from speech users of Python
> >>
> >> Hi Jamal,
> >> While I appreciate the effort you put in to make this feature, I have
> >> some
> >> feedback. I use JAWS indentation scheme that plays notes for indent
> >> levels. That scheme is very efficient for me because it plays the notes
> >> as
> >> the lines are beginning to speak. That is more efficient than waiting for
> >> JAWS or EdSharp to tell me the indent level. Second, I think the feature
> >> needs to use spaces instead of tabs because that is the feedback I am
> >> hearing from the Python Tutor list.
> >>
> >> Jim
> >>
> >> James D Homme, , Usability Engineering, Highmark Inc.,
> >> james.homme@xxxxxxxxxxxx, 412-544-1810
> >>
> >> "Never doubt that a thoughtful group of committed citizens can change the
> >> world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Jamal Mazrui"
> >> <empower@xxxxxxxx
> >> t>
> >> To
> >> Sent by: programmingblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >> programmingblind-
> >> cc
> >> bounce@freelists.
> >> org
> >> Subject
> >> Seeking feedback from speech users
> >> of Python
> >> 12/14/2007 10:36
> >> PM
> >>
> >>
> >> Please respond to
> >> programmingblind@
> >> freelists.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I have included an experimental feature in EdSharp
> >> http://www.EmpowermentZone.com/edsetup.exe
> >>
> >> In seeking a more efficient way of managing the indentation requirement,
> >> I
> >> am trying a coding style called PyBrace, where the colon and indented
> >> block are replaced by a set of curly braces surrounding the block.
> >> Alt+Shift+LeftBracket (think of the brace character) turns either all or
> >> selected text into this style of code, which makes it easy to understand
> >> the structure with speech.
> >>
> >> The inverse command is called PyDent, Alt+LeftBracket, which converts
> >> from
> >> PyBrace format to the equivalent indentation required by the Python
> >> interpreter.
> >>
> >> PyBrace assumes that the opening brace will be at the end of the line of
> >> text that starts the block, and the closing brace will be on a line by
> >> itself. Also, PyDent assumes that a single tab character is used for
> >> each
> >> level of indentation -- though I intend to support other indentation
> >> conventions as well if this approach seems productive.
> >>
> >> I have been able to convert to and from PyBrace and run a Python script
> >> successfully (the Python fruit basket program). If anyone else can try
> >> this approach, and let me know your results as well as any other ideas
> >> for
> >> improvement, that would be helpful.
> >>
> >> Jamal
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> __________
> >> View the list's information and change your settings at
> >> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >>
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
> >
>
> __________
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
>
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
//www.freelists.org/list/programmingblind
Other related posts:
