From a database point of view it's easy enough to tie submissions together so that the aggregate can be retrieved while maintaining the integrity of each individual submission. In this case, I would implement "events" which could envelope multiple submissions from multiple locations over multiple days. That would work well for any number of situations where multiple parties contribute data: CBCs, NAMC, BioBlitzes, etc. On the front end, the user would simply indicate that their submission is part of an event. I like the iNaturalist.org concept of Places which sounds similar to the implementation in BirdNotes. Places are polygon outlines of any location, and all submissions (which are always at a point) that fall within that polygon are automatically included in the aggregate for that Place. Political boundaries (countries, states, counties, etc.) are all in there already, and it's simple enough for any user to create new places within the web site by outlining their area on a map. Using Alan's Klamath Lake example the Event would be an aggregate count of all submissions during a specified calendar day, geographically located within the Klamath Lake Place. The submissions themselves do not violate eBird's policies. Jim Johnson Vancouver, Washington From: obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Wayne Weber Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:48 PM To: OBOL2 Cc: ALAN CONTRERAS; BRIAN SULLIVAN Subject: [obol] Re: The Curmudgeon thinks out loud on CBCs and eBird Oregon Birders, There is one problem with using eBird to record the results of "unofficial" Christmas Bird Counts as Alan suggests. Current eBird policy is that all data entered in eBird should be recorded during one day by a single observer or a party of birders birding together. In other words, results from an individual area or sector of a CBC, if recorded by a single party, are OK to enter in eBird; results from an entire CBC circle are not OK, and will be "invalidated" if they are entered. The reason is that a CBC with 20, 50, or 100 observers results in huge totals for some species, and would badly skew the data summaries, which are based on counts by individual birders. So there would be no way that you could easily see the results from an entire CBC if they were entered in eBird-you would have to manually add up the totals from all the different areas. There have been many "unofficial" CBCs over the years, in Oregon and in most other states and provinces. Most of these were done "unofficially" because the organizers did not want to collect or submit the participation fees. Now that there is no longer a participation fee, the number of "unofficial" counts will probably dwindle to nothing. As Alan says, there is merit in doing repeated winter counts for areas other than 15 mile diameter circles. However, totals from these would not be accepted either by eBird or by the Christmas Bird Count database. It may be that Oregon 2020 would be willing and able to report the results from such surveys, but if not, I'm not aware of an existing project that would accommodate this type of data. Wayne C. Weber Delta, BC contopus@xxxxxxxxx (eBird editor for Metro Vancouver, BC, and past Christmas Count editor for Western Canada) From: obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:obol-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Alan Contreras Sent: December-05-13 5:32 PM To: OBOL Subject: [obol] The Curmudgeon thinks out loud on CBCs and eBird As we prepare to enter CBC season with our winter garments already well broken in, I find myself wondering whether the concept of the Christmas Bird Count is about to undergo a revision - or at least an expansion - as a consequence of the eBird project. Historically, the location of a CBC circle has been firmly policed by the National Audubon Society and the things that happen inside it on count day have used a mild set of protocols that produce a reasonably good idea of bird populations at that time and place. Over the years there have been a number of "unofficial" CBCs, including some in Oregon that participated in a fee revolt (yes, it used to cost you money to participate), but the attraction of such things was limited because the data, unless it were published somewhere reasonably obvious, became a kind of gray literature, hard to find and use. Even if we concede, as I gladly do, that the CBC is more a social outrigger than part of the main hull of the ornithological enterprise, a concern about the "unofficial" CBCs is that what data were gathered melted pretty quickly. That has changed with the advent of eBird. In theory, I can design a "CBC" circle (or some other shape that fits a situation) anywhere I want to, recruit people to participate and do a winter bird count. The data all go into the eBird database, which does not gather quite the same situational data as the CBC does, but does have its own mildly standardized protocols. Given the size of the eBird database, I wonder if data gathered that way would not be at least as valuable for some purposes as the CBC database is. One of the significant limiting factors of the CBC is that bulging, sagging, jaggy-edged amoeba called the Circle. Its sacred 15 miles theoretically never deviates along the edge, heh heh. With rare exceptions, most of them grandfathered decades ago, there are no linear CBCs or other odd shapes, yet I wonder if the concept of the CBC might well be applied to some other situations in which a more natural coverage area could be "counted" to good purpose. For example, imagine a "CBC" that counted all the birds to be found within, say, a hundred yards of the Tualatin River on a single day in January. I mean the WHOLE river, to the extent it is accessible, from headwaters to the confluence. Isn't that just a useful a "CBC" as the Portland circle? Wouldn't it be just as much fun and provide data of equivalent utility? Imagine if the "hotspots" used for such a count were flagged in such a way that the data could be aggregated by anyone wanting to study the river. Click the "Tualatin River CBC" button and you could see the whole picture. The same approach could be used with other natural features (Klamath Lake) or political units (Yamhill County) that are too large or unwieldy to include in a traditional CBC circle. Or even too small: Alsea Bay has extremely limited published bird data, yet a CBC there would probably not draw enough people to cover a whole circle. Yet it is too large and the layout is too clunky for any one team to cover in a day, making accurate counts. A true "Coquille Valley" CBC really needs to add the upper half of the valley, which contains some birds that the official circle does not and which therefore don't really appear anywhere as usable data. For example, most of the Ring-billed Gulls are usually out of the current circle, as are some night-herons, as least historically, and sometimes most of the egrets. And instead of having to establish a formal CBC to count in, say, northwestern Malheur County, some teams could design a coverage area there and count it, say, every two or three years, alternating with other areas for which poor winter data is available, building a really good widespread data set for Oregon birds in winter. A sort of winter bird atlas project that built over time, using eBird as the repository. I specify winter because it is the season at which birders tend to limit their wanderings, but the idea applies to any season. The NAMC already has something like this going on in spring and fall, albeit on an extremely fixed and limited schedule. Some thoughts for a cold night on the Front Range. So who's up for some new winter bird counts? -- Alan Contreras acontrer56@xxxxxxxxx Returning to Oregon in December