Time to reel things in here : ) The only reason I posted what I did
originally was because of eBird postings of Allen's Hummers around Coos
Bay- likely because I mentioned seeing a good candidate in my yard and
because so many folks are down here to see the eider. I just wanted to make
it clear that the so-called Allen's normally occur from Bandon south.
Brookings south into CA is a good area to see birds people don't argue
about. From about Port Orford to Bandon things get murky. Coos Bay north
and most of the rest of W Oregon you have Rufous as your default
Selasphorus.
The report of 6 Allen's at Cape Arago on eBird (and no Rufous) was likely 6
Rufous but I don't know details.
The key is to get good looks at males and see displays to be sure- at least
with the criteria we have for ID now. Perhaps that will change in the
future but we are stuck with the current ID criteria until someone does
some more research.
Thanks all!
Tim R
Coos Bay
On Tuesday, March 14, 2017, DJ Lauten and KACastelein <
deweysage@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tim,
I suspect because a) you can't shoot and eat them, and b) they are not
endangered, is the reasons no one has done the studies needed.
Tim knows darn well how I feel about this issue - which can be summed up
as, 'no one really knows'. The truth is we can call a display this or
that, but we aren't a female Selasphorus, so frankly, what the heck do we
know about displays? I feel that sometimes the display is a little too
much leaned on. I'm not sure anyone really knows what the difference is
in displays to a female - is it really meaningful? How many females
differentiate between this male swinging and that male not? Look at a
human disco dance room - do all the females do after the guys who swing, or
the guys who don't? Sexual selection is a very tricky topic in many
ways. What anthropomorphic aspect we put on it might mean nothing to the
lady female hummingbirds who are the target.
In other words, what do we really know? Without genetics, how can you
tell? And since male Selasphorus have nothing to do with raising the
chicks, what do the genetics really tell us anyway? Extra pair copulation
is a well known phenomenon. Do female Selasphorus really care about what
color the back is or how they display? Point me to the evidence.........I
suspect you can't.
Cheers
Dave Lauten
On 3/14/2017 6:58 AM, Tim Rodenkirk wrote:
All I shared with you is my experience at New River and further north in
Coos County Dave and Kathy live right in the area where the green-backed
males of varying percentage of green on their backs seem to be in very good
number. I would say that they are the majority of breeding Selasphorus at
New River. Yep, no genetic work has been done but it sure seems like it
would be a good area to try and do some.
When I do see all green-backed males doing Allen's type displays I have
been calling them Allen's- maybe 10% of the birds at New River. When I
have seen all red-backed males doing Rufous type displays at New River I
have been calling them Rufous (maybe 10% of the breeders after the migrants
have passed through). That leaves the other 80% that are head scratchers.
I see the same variability over in the Coquille River valley and up the SF
of the Coquille to Powers. I have seen Allen's type displays at 2,200' in
Eden Valley near Mt. Bolivar in SE Coos. Also, most of the green-backed
birds I see at New river do Allen's type displays but I have seen a very
few do Rufous type displays.
I don't spend a lot of time elsewhere in Oregon during the mid-March to
mid-May period but I assume green-backed Selasphorus are a lot less common
further north along the coast and in the Willamette Valley- right? If one
goes down to Brookings during that period it seems to be all Allen's and is
certainly that way down into CA.
Yeah maybe they should be lumped but no one has gone there yet for
whatever reason. I think the south coast would be a fascinating place to
do some graduate research on these two sister species, hint hint.
Enjoy!
Tim R
Coos Bay
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 6:49 PM, DJ Lauten and KACastelein <
deweysage@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','deweysage@xxxxxxxxxxxx');>> wrote:
I agree 100% and I have been saying so for years. We live on the
supposedly line between Allen's and Rufous, just north of Bandon and the
Coquille river. Both types of males display in our yard.
Cheers
Dave Lauten
On 3/13/2017 5:49 PM, Mike Patterson wrote:
It's been a while since I checked the literature, but the occurrencePOST: Send your post to obol@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
of RufousxAllen's hybrids has to my knowledge, never been clearly
demonstrated. This is not to say that hybrids have not been reported.
They have, but given the difficulty of sorting clear hybrid traits
from the statistical noise of variability in these two very closely
related sister taxa, I suspect only genetic evidence would be
definitive. It's possible this work has been done, but I haven't
seen the paperwork.
Rufous Hummingbird males show green backs, sometimes VERY green backs,
so having a green back does not a hybrid make. I'm not even convinced
that intermediate flight displays would get you there.
And just for the record, there is a small group of taxonomists who
believe they should be lumped, anyway.
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