[north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

From: Catherine Bernard <catherinebernard6363@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2021 20:47:29 -0500

A continuing thank you to my neighbors for all the great tips.
cb

On Tue, Nov 30, 2021 at 8:35 PM Milford Sprecher <milford.sprecher@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

If you live in the historic district and have a historic home, you can
apply for a state tax credit through the Maryland Historic Trust for any
work, interior and exterior on your house.  The process takes time as you
need to plan ahead and get approval before starting work and that can take
a few months.  The credit is for 20% of the project cost, so if it is a
decent-sized project, it is well worth it.  They want before and after
pictures of your whole house and you won't get credit if you remove walls
and replace plaster with sheet rock, but if you are replacing a heating
system, you should be eligible for tax a credit.  The credit is off your
income tax.  https://mht.maryland.gov/taxcredits_homeowner.shtml

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:56 PM Megan Ryan <meglynn.ryan@xxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

I believe ours is the same unit as Mike has (on Takoma) and if anyone
else is in our tiny space situation I can highly recommend it. We feel
safer with the unit a wall away and it's efficient. Also all our utility
bills fall way below normal usage. I was worried that there would be a
delay in hot water (say starting the shower) but the minute you release the
tap it kicks in and it's HOT.

Meg

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:21 PM Milford Sprecher <
milford.sprecher@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Great discussion.  Thanks for all the input.

Megan's system is gas.  I looked at one of those a few years ago, but my
current boiler still had (has) many years of life left.  It was not
economically justifiable to replace at that time, although environmentally
it probably was.

On Mon, Nov 29, 2021 at 12:00 PM Paul Barkley <
pbarkley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Pshaw!  YOLO!  😊

I remember visiting a FSBO house in the 60s over in McLean where the
owner had installed a concrete pad in the basement for a nuclear-powered
HVAC system!  Cool beans!  I believe it was GE who had published the
physical specs for the device, which is where he got the measurements
from.  For some reason, they never actually produced any of these devices
for sale.  I’m guessing the Atomic Energy Commission out in Germantown
would have nixed the idea.  And no, I have no idea how they thought this
might actually work.  Probably the marketing department getting ahead of
the actual engineering.  Today the idea seems incredibly ridiculous, but
this guy was ready to buy one as soon as they were available.

Regards,

Paul

*Blue Crab Software, LLC*

http://www.bluecrabsoftware.com/

*301.576.6447*

*202.291.2011*

*From:* north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <
north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Paul Chrostowski
*Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 10:51 AM
*To:* north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

Mike

The proposal to run hydrogen through existing infrastructure is very
controversial—although there are certainly commercial and some DOE
boosters, it has far from universal acceptance—too main questions about
pumps, values, gaskets, pressure gauges etc.  As far as you comment about
developing systems, I remember way back to my first college Chem Eng course
where the professor told all us young  over-enthusiastic technology lovers
that all engineered systems eventually fail.  Many years of risk and
failure analyses for the chemical industry have only reinforced what he
said way back in the 1970s. No technology has been designed for safety like
the nuclear generating sector, yet we had Chernobyl, Fukushima, TMI etc.
This is a country that can’t even maintain safe bridges and sewer systems
let alone hydrogen conveyances.

Paul C

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows

*From: *Mike's Email <mjohnsen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, November 29, 2021 10:31 AM
*To: *north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

Europe is way ahead of us on renewable hydrogen but it’s coming here.
Renewable H2 will be put into the existing pipeline- that’s what the
DOE/DOT partnership in the infrastructure bill (among other things) is
for.  As far as safety goes, natural gas can be more dangerous-  it sinks-
H2 floats and dissipates more quickly.  Electricity is dangerous and so are
large batteries.  Things can be dangerous: we develop systems and methods
to minimize those dangers.

Just pointing out some facts.  All of our energy systems changing and
there are pros and cons for each.  We’ll need every tool in the box to
fight climate change.  Big change is here and more is coming.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2021, at 10:13 AM, Paul Barkley <
pbarkley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hydrogen is scary?  That’s just fear mongering.  What could possibly go
wrong?

Regards,

Paul

*Blue Crab Software, LLC*

http://www.bluecrabsoftware.com/

*301.576.6447*

*202.291.2011*

*From:* north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <
north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Paul Chrostowski
*Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 10:07 AM
*To:* north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

In reality, hydrogen is only feasible for vehicles (like in California)
and never will be for residential use or replace other fuels in generating
electricity for the grid. It can’t replace natural gas pipelines due to
materials incompatibility problems.  Hydrogen is also scary—I had to work
with it in my lab many years ago.  It is an extremely dangerous material to
handle, even with advanced training.  Also, BTW, the most promising way of
making “blue” or “green” hydrogen (note hydrogen really doesn’t have any
color—at about -260 C, it solidifies and turns black and when compressed,
turns into a meta) is biologically (using specific algae), not
electrochemically.

Paul C

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows

*From: *Paul Barkley <pbarkley@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent: *Monday, November 29, 2021 9:25 AM
*To: *north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject: *[north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

???

The article, and those who are creating hydrogen out of natural gas,
really miss the point about hydrogen as a clean energy source.  You’re
supposed to produce it from sources such as wind that are not sustainable
24/7/365 so you can store the energy and use it during off-peak times!
Making it from natural gas is…insane IMO.  That’s a crazy argument to
equate the use of hydrogen with the way SOME companies produce it.

The article did briefly mention this near the end, but that’s where the
attractiveness of hydrogen is.  What’s next, a plan to feed cows beans and
make hydrogen from methane and then complain about how much methane gets
into the atmosphere from non-cooperative, leaky cows and then write
articles about how bad hydrogen is?

Companies like Hydrogenics (purchased in 2019 by Cummins) produce
hydrogen by converting solar, wind, hydroelectric or industrial by-product
into hydrogen.  You can also take fossil fuels and convert them to hydrogen
using this technology, but there’s no point in that, just use the fossil
fuel if you must.  And of course every time you convert from one source to
another, you lose some, so you only want to do this when you need a way to
store energy.  If everything in the world ran only on hydrogen, we’d waste
a lot of energy converting, but that’s not the situation.  I suspect the
gist of the article and the reason we even have people converting natural
gas to hydrogen is that they can’t get enough hydrogen from clean sources
yet.  IOW, the demand for hydrogen has exceeded the supply, at least in
certain areas.

Of course none of the above should be construed as advice about a new
purchase.  Excuse me while I shovel some more coal into our furnace…

Regards,

Paul

*Blue Crab Software, LLC*

http://www.bluecrabsoftware.com/

*301.576.6447*

*202.291.2011*

*From:* north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx <
north-takoma-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of *Abigail Rome
*Sent:* Monday, November 29, 2021 7:19 AM
*To:* north-takoma@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

Please note that the production is not at all climate friendly and is
quite expensive.  See this:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html

“In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of blue hydrogen
was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or coal for
heat.”

Abi

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 29, 2021, at 6:46 AM, Mike's Email <mjohnsen@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

You can replace it with a super high efficiency gas burner - it mounts
on your wall - or get an electric boiler (not so efficient) or install
ductwork and go with forced air.  Note that electricity coming into your
house is mostly from coal so while you can send your check to a wind farm,
make no mistake: electricity around here is still pretty dirty.  Also note
that the infrastructure bill has funds to start the transition to hydrogen
fuel mixed into the natural gas system- hydrogen is easily produced from
excess capacity renewables so the “gas” system is also moving to clean
sources.

I would recommend costing out the electric boiler vs gas to install and
operate- and unless you have current ductwork, that is likely going to be
highly disruptive (and expensive) to put in forced air.  Note the heat
pumps are also your central AC and are very efficient and effective.

Mike on Takoma

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2021, at 10:55 PM, Dvidutis <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Never give up your radiators…

Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
<https://apps.apple.com/us/app/aol-news-email-weather-video/id646100661>

On Sunday, November 28, 2021, 8:07 PM, Catherine Bernard <
catherinebernard6363@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I'm reaching out to all my well informed neighbors for any advice on
replacing our gas furnace with..  what?

When we moved into this house in 1985, the inspector said that the
furnace was old and needed to be replaced.  Now, 36 years later, it
actually may need to be replaced.  I wondered if this was an opportunity to
move away from fossil fuels.

Winegar recommended a high efficiency gas furnace.  We have cast iron
radiators.  Any thoughts?

Thanks -

Cathy

--
Milford H. Sprecher
525 Albany Ave.
Takoma Park, MD 20912
301-830-2198

--
Milford H. Sprecher
525 Albany Ave.
Takoma Park, MD 20912
301-830-2198

--
*Catherine Bernard*

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References:
- [north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace
  - From: Milford Sprecher

[north-takoma] Re: switch out of a gas furnace

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