[modular-debian] Re: Thoughts on the GR vote
- From: Joel Roth <joelz@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: modular-debian@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2014 17:19:01 -1000
On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 09:16:26PM -0500, Marty wrote:
> This is my view based on an imperfect understanding of the Debian GR and I
> welcome alternate or opposing viewpoints on this.
>
> The GR vote is a "no-op" according to most DDs, and the main objection is
> that it is unnecessary, especially with the imminent freeze.
Hiya Marty,
I'm not sure DDs see the issue exclusively in terms of the
upcoming release, however that is certainly possible.
In any case, the software has deeply divided the Debian
community and undermines (if not vaporizes) the Unix security
model.
> I don't see it
> as affecting the "modular-debian project" at all, at this time. It only
> addresses a technical detail on the application of the Debian Policy, where
> there could be misunderstandings.
Well, I'm a sid user, so I guess that puts me on the dark
side! (I just did apt-get upgrade, and I feel so dirty!) I'm
running with systemd-shim and feeling mostly fine (a little
queezy about the slime and the tentacles :^)
> It's a crucial technical detail, the PID 1 dependency issue, but it's
> already part of Debian policy and has *zero* affect on the Jessie release.
> It could, however, have a dramatic effect in the future and open the
> floodgates for incompatible packages that depend on PID 1.
Well, Debian has a big installed base and a lot of good
will, but they aren't the only show in town by any means!
> If that happens, we could have our work cut out for us. If we lay the
> groundwork now, however, that would could be easier because it's possible
> that fewer upstreams would be persuaded to support only systemd if they know
> there is a serious multi-init effort in Debian.
I doubt that all the packagers will just throw away their
working sysvinit scripts. Also systemd-shim is still running,
so I give the boat a little longer, but like any good
shiprat, I'm preparing to swim for it.
> Another way it could affect Debian if the vote is misinterpreted or those
> misunderstandings persist, but I don't see it changing minds anyway, so I
> don't see the vote making much difference one way or the other. To average
> Debian users or the public, especially the trade press, it's bound to be
> misinterpreted. That's just a fact at this point and there's nothing anyone
> can do about it.
>
> That does, however, make it all the more important to realize that the vote
> doesn't affect us much. Either outcome means we have a huge amount of work
> to do.
> If we think of the vote as an election result, with winners and losers, but
> I think that's a completely wrong way to look at it if you value choice.
>
> Another way to look at it, is if the "proponents" side wins by 50% + 1 vote,
> that means 50 percent of the project still values choice. The anti-choice
> side "loses" by any meaningful definition of the term. If the proponents win
> by 2/3 +1, that still leaves one third of the project on the side of choice,
> so again the anti-choice side loses, in my book, but there really are no
> losers, if everyone has the choice they want.
>
> While the vote is an interesting and maybe useful survey of DD opinion on
> user choice (or modularity by extension) I see no way it could be
> interpreted to mean that choice and modularity are dead in Debian.
>
> There would still be little to no chance of a vote to change Debian's
> current policy of supporting multiple init systems, as long as there are DDs
> and users who value choice, and I thing that will always be the case.
I agree with you thoroughly, however I think that developers
such as the freedesktop people (to mention one hobbyhorse)
*will* introduce hard dependencies through the back door,
regardless of any vote or policy. It is their destiny,
to "meet the needs of their users."
In looking for alternative OSs, I see that Gobo, my
heartthrob for some years, now has hundreds of "recipes" for
compiling even big apps like openoffice, gimp and blender.
I guess I'll be reporting as I explore down that road
a ways. So long pardners, guess I'll ride along,
till the next fork in the road.
Cheers,
Joel
--
Joel Roth
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