JL, I did wonder that (my) Pausanias had written enough to fill six volumes of Loeb, but Cartledge describes him as one much given to self-aggrandizement, and I thought it must have been more serious than I realized. As to remembering the names of the Argonauts, I read those legends at one time, but not recently. In looking at your list I wonder whether these, Nestor, for example is the same man who fought against the Trojans. And what about Odysseus Ithakai? How did those real people get on the mythical Argos?s And here is the father of Odysseus, Laertesson Ithaca. Did father and son travel together after the Golden Fleece? I don’t remember this very well, if I ever knew it. I did read the Iliad and Odyssey 2 or 3 times each, but not recently. Some of these names appear in Homer. Lawrence From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 1:22 PM To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [lit-ideas] The Greek Bädeker Pausanias: The Greek Bädeker --- and the Dioscuri ---- Oops, -- and _this_ Pausanias, the one I was meaning, is still less (much less) honourable. He is described by C. Osborne, in the Dict. of Art, as the "Greek Baedeker". For some reason, Loeb thought it good to have it in his Classical Library, so we have -- let me check -- SIX volumes -- of Pausanias. I only own I and II -- the second opens with "Laconia", a rather dry Book, which mentions the Pausanias that matters that you mention. It's odd how the Greeks thought that a name like "Pausanias" would be recongisable. I was recently checking the list of Argonauts, and it's always, "the son of ...", which makes for very heavy reading, plus the town where they originated from, which makes more sense. So I suppose the idea of "Telemachus, son of Odysseus", was meant as a pure patronymic. I understand that the system, as it is, is preserved in ICELAND -- (only), where say, if Patricia is the daughter of Julian, she would be called Patricia Juliandaughter. If Patrick is the son of Julian, he would be Patrick Julianson. Odd, but nice. I append below the list of Argonauts. See if you recognise one (or two). I recognise the whole lot! I will have to double check it with the main Loeb sources for that: one in Greek (APOLLONIUS, Argonautica) and one in Latin, Valerius. From Sparta we have at least two -- who John Milton, in Paradise Lost, or Ageop. calls "The Spartan Twins", Castor and Pollux. Interesting pair, if you axes me. Cheers, JL Thanks to L. K. Helm for his post on "Pausanias. "[JLS] mention[s] Pausanias. He is an interesting fellow. Although not built along the heroic lines of Leonidas, he apparently thought he was, and that got him into trouble. Being a great general did not garner him the Spartan esteem he thought he deserved. The Spartans valued a great hero who proved himself on the field of battle above that of a great general who led his armies to success in a war. ...The actual crime that caused him to “be walled up in the temple of Athena of the Brazen house and starved to death” was intriguing with the Helots, the Spartan slaves. Later, after Pausanias’ death, and the Spartans were running low on warrior-citizens, they did grant Helots “a conditional form of freedom in return for military service ... Only later, after recourse to the Delphic Oracle, was Pausanias posthumously rehabilitated and given an unprecedented token of honour in the form of two bronze commemorative statues. Much later still his name was linked with that of Leonidas as recipient of annual games held in their joint honour.” Acastus Iolkos Actor Admetus Thessalia) Aethalides Phthia Alastor Pylos Amphiaraus Argos AmphidamasTegea Amphetus Lacedaemon Amphion Pellene Amphistratus Lacedaemonia Amyrus Thessalia Angaeus Tegea Angaeus Pleuron Angaeus Samos Areius Argos Argus Argos Argus Thessalia Argus Thespiae Armenos Rhode Armenos Thessalia Ascalaphus Orchomenus Asclepios Thessalia Asterius Thessalia Asterius Pellene Augeias Elis Autolycus Trekke Azorus, Bellerophon Corinthos Butes, Attica Calais Caeneus, Thessaly Canthus Euboea Castor Sparta, Cepheus Tegea Cercas Lacedaemon Cytissorus Thessaly Dascylus Heracleia Demoleon Trekke Echion Thessaly Erginus Orchomenus Erginus Miletus Erytus Eumedon Phlious Euphemus Thespiae Euryalus Argos Eurybotes Eurydamas Locris Eurydamas Thessalia Glaucus Thespeae Heracles Thebai Hylas Dryopia Ialmenus Orchomenus Idas Argus Idmon Argos Iolaus Thebai Iphecles Thebai Ipheclus Pleuron Iphes Argos Iphetus Oehalia Iphetus Phocis JasonThessaly Laertesson Ithaca Laodocus Argos Leetusson Thespiae Lynceus Messene Melas Thessaly Meleager Calydon Menoetius Phthia Mopsus Thessaly Nauplius Argos Neleus Pylos Nestor Pylos Odysseus Ithakai Oedipus Thebai Oileus Locris Orpheos Thrakia Palaemon Pandion Thrace Peirithos Thessaly Peleus Thessaly Peneleus Thespiae Periclunenos Pylos Perseus Argos Phalerus Attica Phanus Philoctetes Thessalia Phlyas Argos Phrontis Thessalia Plexippus Thrace Plogius. Sinope Poeas Thessalia Polydeuces Sparta Polyphemos Thessaly Perissotros Prothumos Staphulos Talaos Argos Telamon Salamis Theseos Athenae Tiphus Thespiae Tudeus Kalydon Zetes Zetes -------- Pausanias (Greek: Παυσανίας) was a Greek traveller and geographer of the 2nd century A.D., who lived in the times of Hadrian, Antoninus Pius and Marcus ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer) - 33k - <http://126.96.36.199/search?q=cache:VQn8EksgJwoJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)+Pausanias&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&ie=UTF-8> Cached - <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)> Similar pages Pausanias (Athenian), lover of the poet Agathon and a character in Plato's Symposium. ... Pausanias of Sparta, King of Sparta from 409 BC to 395 BC. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias - 16k - <http://188.8.131.52/search?q=cache:AuA0HSHR2RkJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias+Pausanias&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&ie=UTF-8> Cached - <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias> Similar pages Pausanias (†470): Spartan prince from the Agiad dynasty, commander of the Greek troops that defeated the Persians at Plataea (479). ... www.livius.org/pan-paz/pausanias/pausanias.html - 12k - <http://184.108.40.206/search?q=cache:4n425hC6o_sJ:www.livius.org/pan-paz/pausanias/pausanias.html+Pausanias&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us&ie=UTF-8> Cached - <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=related:www.livius.org/pan-paz/pausanias/pausanias.html> Similar pages _____ Check out AOL Money & Finance's list of the hottest <http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001> products and top <http://money.aol.com/top5/general/ways-you-are-wasting-money?NCID=aoltop00030000000002> money wasters of 2007.