Lawrence, I don't have time right now to answer all this, but just
wanted to point out that the religion wasn't my point. I didn't know
anything about your Christian beliefs or lack thereof, and it wouldn't
have mattered here anyway. Anthony Flew's Christian beliefs or lack
thereof also didn't interest me (although they might in some different
discussion). I was merely trying to promote a discussion about how our
minds are so quick to take what we want from news or opinion pieces --
and how increasingly thoroughly convinced of the rightness of our
positions we are. I was comparing that certainty to Basil Mitchell's
scenario of the resistance fighter who, on the basis of an emotional
experience, makes up his mind about something and is no longer able to
'see' events in the same way as others around him.
To that end, I pointed to the 'true believer' parable in the article
(which I said was number 4, two-thirds of the way down the page -- and
only tangentially said that the whole page was interesting reading). In
other words, I sent the page because the 'true believer' parable was
laid out, not because of the page as a whole. Perhaps I should have
excerpted it and dispensed with the page. I was not suggesting in any
way that you were any more close-minded and narrow thinking than I was
-- and certainly not suggesting that this had anythig to do with
Christianity. Please read more carefully...
Ursula
Lawrence Helm wrote:
Ursula,
What you have written may be a commentary upon how we relate on Lit-Ideas. You have implied that my thinking is narrow and limited and post an article that is intended to back that up, i.e., if I believe in God, and I do, then surely I am narrow and limited. However, and this is the irony of your post, it presents Anthony Flew as the champion of enlightened thought, as the champion of the atheist position, as the expert against which there is no appeal. But I couldn’t possibly read this and come to the conclusions you came to because I knew that Anthony Flew gave up the position you post and became a theist.
Thus instead of having the thoughts you expected me to have I was wondering how Anthony Flew himself answered these issues now that he has moved over to the opposite point of view. I also wondered about the intellectual honesty of Sandra LaFave who last updated her site on August 2005 well after Flew gave up his atheism and became a theist.
Here are some articles about Flew’s theism: http://www.theroadtoemmaus.org/RdLb/21PbAr/Apl/FlewTheist.htm
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2004/12/09/210618.php
http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=369 <http://www.secweb.org/index.aspx?action=viewAsset&id=369>
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:lit-ideas-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Ursula Stange
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 7:27 PM
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [lit-ideas] Re: True believers
What a prescient subject line, Mike. I've been thinking for the last
two days that there might be something salvageable out of this
predictable back and forth. How could we all, intelligent people that
we are, continually interpret all events to match our world view? I
marvel at Lawrence's ability to look at the same news stories I look at
and find in them, support for his world view. Perhaps he is equally in
awe of my ability to do that. It seems somehow akin to religious faith,
which no facts can budge. How did it get this way? What furnace are
our world views created in that they are made of such tough stuff?
What would it take to make us change? Could we change?
I've wrestled with this for some years now. I see in myself how quickly
I accept things which support my world view and reject things which
don't. This in spite of my best efforts at times to see value or
instruction or warning in things which I am tempted to reject. But
reject, I always do. There is so much to say here. It does indeed,
seem like religious faith....and hence, non-falsifiable...Whatever
Lawrence throws my way, I have an answer for. Perhaps he would admit
the same...
So, I've been trying to remember the name of the philosopher who
developed the parable of the True Believer. And just this morning, I
found him. Basil Mitchell. He's about two-thirds of the way down the
following page, but the lead-up is also worth reading...Enjoy...
http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/flew.html
Ursula
Mike Geary wrote:
God love you all and keep those messages coming.
Ritchie's a lot more patient than I am and more discerning about
minute variations of theme -- the true sign of an artist. I want
action. I want conversions. Most here on this list aren't artists,
they're like me -- evangelists. We want to convert the world to the
truth as we certainly know it. I
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