[lit-ideas] Ossian -- the Barbarian -- and His Mother Too
- From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:35:47 EDT
Thanks to R. Paul for the quotes.
Especially interesting seem:
_Arist.Pol.1252b5_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0086,035:1252b:5&vers=original&word=ba/rba^ros#word1)
, _Str.14.2.28_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0099,001:14:2:28
&vers=original&word=ba/rba^ros#word1) ;
_barbarôn_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=barba/rwn&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_Hellênas_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=*(/ellhnas&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057
) _archein_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a)/rxein&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_eikos_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei)ko/s&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_E.IA1400_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0006,018:1400&vers=original&word=ba/rba^ros#word1)
;
b. _kai_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai/&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_doulon_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dou=lon&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_tauto_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tau)to/&byte
pos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057) _phusei_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fu/sei&bytepos=
28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057) _Arist.Pol.
1252b9_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0086,035:1252b:9&vers=original&word=ba/rba^ros#word1)
; _hoi_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=oi(&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=2&emb
ed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
b. _doulikôteroi_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=doulikw/teroi&bytepos=2
8582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057) _ta_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ta/&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_êthê_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h)/qh&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_phusei_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fu/sei&bytepos=28582479&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057)
_tôn_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw=n&bytepos=28
582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057) _Hellênôn_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=*(ellh/nwn&bytepos=
28582479&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0057) ib._1285a20_
(http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:abo:tlg,0086,035:1285a:20&;
vers=original&word=ba/rba^ros#word1) ;
-- where foreigners ('barbarous' [people]) seem to be grouped together with
slaves (possibly therefore implying they can, again, be _un_grouped).
Also,the OED (under 'barbarous') does agrees with R. Paul's 'received view'
that 'barbaros' was originally a neutral, descriptive, non-derogatory term in
Greek (with only, I'd say, an implicatural derogation at most). The OED
reads:
"The sense-development in ancient times was
(with the Greeks) ‘foreign, non-Hellenic,’
later ‘outlandish, rude, brutal'"
As for value-oriented concepts, I don't see in fact applies. Grice's
concoction allows for things like
"Conan is a good Barbarian"
as not being strictly contradictory.
(cf. "a good assassin").
Grice is interested in more abstract cases, like rationality. If 'logos' was
however for the Greeks both "word" and "ratio", I think it was fairer to
call 'barbarians' 'barbarophones', as Homer did; as implying they were
rational-human beings. As anglophones refer to NESBies
(Non-English-Speaking-Background) in a descriptive way. :(
Grice:
"There is a range of cases in which, so far from its being the case that,
typically, one learns what it is to be a phi [hellenikos] and then, at the next
stage, learns what criteria distinguish a 'good [phi]' from a [phi] which is
less good, or no good at all, one needs first to learn what it is to be a
_good_ phi, and then subsequently to learn what degree of approximation to
being
a good phi will qualify an item x as a phi. If the gap between x and good
phi's is sufficiently horrendous, then x is debarred from counting as a phi at
all, even as a bad phi. I have elsewhere called concepts which exhibit this
feature 'value-oriented concepts'. (Reply to Richards, p. 83).
In rewrite, we have the idea of a "Greek" (who speaks Greek). That's a
value-oriented concept, because "Greek sentence" is a value-oriented concept,
and
we may define Greek as "utterer of English sentence" (Grice does give the
example of 'sentence' as yet another value-oriented concept).
For the case of the Barbarian, we are not even sure the Barbarian speaks in
sentences, so the value-orientation is murky. Maybe they are just groaning. Or
providing onomatopoetic sounds like parrots. Maybe they are not rational.
Let's call them "noise-makers" (barbaros).
Unfortunatley, my argument flops when we see that someone may count as a
_good_ noise-maker (or a good _unintelliglble_ noise maker), rending
'noise-making' yet another value-oriented concept.
Anyway, to bed.
Good night,
JL
Cheers,
JL
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