[lit-ideas] Re: "Il pleut! Il pleut!" (Locke's Parrot (Was: Grice's Pirot
- From: "Mike Geary" <atlas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:06:24 -0500
AR:
>It's one of the odd features about language that you don't need to
>form the idea first and then say it.
JL:
>>I disagree, and Locke (who wrote "An essay concerning Humane Understanding"
>>in 1690, Book III being relevant here: The Way of Words) would, too.<<
If what Andreas means is what I've commented on many a times here without any
recognition of my perceptiveness, namely that when speaking we (I, anyway) have
no idea what word is going to come out next, if that's what Andreas means then
I agree with him. Not only do we not know which specific word is going to come
out, we edit our vocabulary, tone, rhetoric to fit our audience in accordance
with our intent -- all with very minimal conscious awareness. Talking is
automatic. That fascinates me. Even as I type this I have no any idea what
word I'm about to type next, but luckily I can go back and change my writing,
not so what I say. I usually do have some "theme" or "subject" in mind that
gives guidance when speaking, but not always, and even when there is a mission
to my speach, as likely as not some word will jump up and take me onto a path
never travelled and that makes all the difference in the world, wait a minute,
somebody's already said that, oh well, hell is full of fools who didn't know
how to fool God. I'm a fool for you, baby. That's from a song, I think. So
all I'm doing here is parroting parrots. In fact, every word I know has been
used before. A gazillion times before. Except one -- and I'm keeping that one
to myself. How does Locke know what parrots are thinking. I'd say a parrot is
thinking: "if I say 'Polly wants a cracker' this stupid idiot will give me one"
-- who's the real thinker here?
Mike Geary
Midtown Memphis is not Normal
----- Original Message -----
From: Jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: [lit-ideas] "Il pleut! Il pleut!" (Locke's Parrot (Was: Grice's Pirot
Andreas Ramons writes:
His example is that of the Parrot (Grice later adapts this as a Pirot for
some obscure reason).
The difference between the Parrot and the Person, Locke claims is that the
Parrot does as exactly what Ramos thinks is the normal procedure with Danish or
English:
>you don't think before you say it
Odd that Ramos would use 'idea', which is _the_ Lockean term _par
excellence_. Parrots cannot _say_ it (in the oratio obliqua sense of 'say),
because they have _no_ idea of what they are _saying_.
You can _train_ a parrot to say, "Il pleut! Il pleut!" (It rains! It rains,
-- the old man is snoring, etc.)
but you hardly would like to say that the parrot _said_ that it was raining.
Cheers,
JL
J. L. Speranza, Esq.
Town:
Calle Arenales 2021, Piso 5, St. 8,
La Recoleta C1124AAE,
Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Tel. 54 11 4824 4253
Fax 54 221 425 9205
Country:
St. Michael Hall,
Calle 58, No. 611,
La Plata B1900 BPY
Provincia de Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Tel. 54 221 425 7817
Fax 54 221 425 9205
http://www.stmichaels.com.ar
jls@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
jlsperanza@xxxxxxx
http://www.netverk/~jls.htm
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