>In a message dated 5/25/2014 6:03:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes in "The Descent of Man and self-sacrifice": mere "group selection", where a group does not presuppose genetic kinship, is not allowed. For the record, biological altruism is examined philosophically in: Okasha, Samir, "Biological Altruism", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2013 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2013/entries/altruism-biological/>.> Nothing in this examination contradicts my own post: in particular, nothing rebuts the claim that Lawrence said was false viz. that nothing can be 'selected for' "via" [i.e. due to or because of] its removal from the gene-pool. Samir mentions "reciprocal altruism", and it is clear this "altruism" need not be reciprocity between genetically related creatures - hippos and fish that feed by cleaning parasites from hippos are in a genetically unrelated but reciprocal relationship. But this relationship is not one where either creature is laying down or risking its life, as per what Lawrence had in mind: this latter kind of perilous "altruism" cannot work unless it benefits related genes, for its adaptive advantage lies in how it protects related genes and never in the fact it may led to death (for death removes the altruist from the gene-pool). If such "altruism" [e.g. a parent defending offspring] only led to the disadvantage of death without conferring any advantage on related genes, then such "altruism" could never be 'selected for': and even where it confers some advantage on related genes, it may still be 'selected against' because that advantage does not outweigh the disadvantage of removal of the same "genes" through death. Dnl Ldn On Monday, 26 May 2014, 2:04, "dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <dmarc-noreply@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: In a message dated 5/25/2014 6:03:12 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, donalmcevoyuk@xxxxxxxxxxx writes in "The Descent of Man and self-sacrifice": mere "group selection", where a group does not presupposes genetic kinship, is not allowed. For the record, biological altruism is examined philosophically in: Okasha, Samir, "Biological Altruism", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Fall 2013 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.), URL = <http://plato.stanford.edu/archives/fall2013/entries/altruism-biological/>. with interesting biographical references -- a few selected below. Since Grice created the Cooperative Principle, I guess the evolution of cooperation is relevant (to Griceians) -- as per title of essay cited belw. Another essay, 'altruism: one word, multiple meanings' seems anti-Griceian (Do not multiply senses beyond necessity). One of Grice's unpublications read, "read Dawinks". It's not clear he did. (He wrote that on an airplane bag). Grice was obsessed (in a good way) by Aristotle on 'the soul'. Aristotle remarked that the idea of 'number' has to be understood 'serially': so, Aristotle adds, 'soul'. This gives Grice the idea that evolutionary theory may provide some background to the idea that the Aristotelian 'progress' makes sense. Making fun of Carnap's "Pirots karulise elatically", Grice calls these creatures, 'pirots', as they evolve from plants to humans. Talking pirots are at the apex, where the Cooperative Principle operates. The Cooperative Principle was Grice's second shot at virtues of efficient communication and only mentioned in the 1967 William James lectures. At Oxford, two years earlier he had referred merely to the less systematic virtues of candour, clarity, brevity, and such -- all analysed ONLY in connection with their ability to 'generate' implicatures (which is what he was interested in -- as a philosopher, not a linguist or a sociobiologist!). Cheers, Speranza Abbot, P. et. al., 2011, ‘Inclusive Fitness Theory and Eusociality’, Nature, 471: E1–E4. Axelrod, R. and Hamilton, W. D., 1981, ‘The Evolution of Cooperation’, Science, 211: 1390–96. Axelrod. R., 1984, The Evolution of Cooperation, New York: Basic Books. Bowles, S. and Gintis, H., 2011, A Cooperative Species: Human Reciprocity and its Evolution, Princeton: Princeton University Press. Carter, G. G. and Wilkinson, G. S., 2013, ‘Food Sharing in Vampire Bats: reciprocal help predicts donations more than relatedness or harassment’, Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 280: 20122573, doi 10.1098/rspb.2012.2573. Clavien, C. and Chapuisat, M., 2013, ‘Altruism across disciplines: one word, multiple meanings ’, Biology and Philosophy, 28(1): 125–140. Darwin, C., 1859, On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, London: John Murray. –––, 1871, The Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex, New York: Appleton. Dawkins, R., 1976, The Selfish Gene, Oxford: Oxford University Press.. Dugatkin, L. A., 1997, Cooperation among Animals: an Evolutionary Perspective, Oxford: Oxford University Press. Gardner, A., Alpedrinha J. and West S. A., 2012, ‘Haplodiploidy and the evolution of eusociality: split sex ratios’, American Naturalist, 179: 240– 56. Hamilton, W. D., –––, 1970, ‘Selfish and Spiteful Behaviour in an Evolutionary Model’, Nature, 228: 1218–1220. Hammerstein, P., 2003, ‘Why is Reciprocity so Rare in Social Animals? A Protestant Appeal’, in P. Lehmann, L. and Keller, L., 2006 ‘The Evolution of Cooperation and Altruism. A General Framework and Classification of Models’ , Journal of Evolutionary Biology, 19: 1365–1725. Maynard Smith, J., –––, 1998, ‘The Origin of Altruism’, Nature, 393: 639– 640. Okasha, S., 2005, ‘Altruism, Group Selection and Correlated Interaction’ , British Journal for the Philosophy of Science, 56: 703–24. Sachs, J. L., 2004, ‘The Evolution of Cooperation’, The Quarterly Review of Biology, 79: 135–160. Sober, E., 1994, ‘Did Evolution Make us Psychological Egoists?’, in his From A Biological Point of View, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Taborsky, M. 2013, ‘Social Evolution: Reciprocity There Is’, Current Biology, 23(11): R486–88. Trivers, R. L., 1971, ‘The Evolution of Reciprocal Altruism’, Quarterly Review of Biology, 46: 35–57. Vromen, J., 2012, ‘Human Cooperation and Reciprocity’, in Evolution and Rationality, S. Okasha and K. Binmore (eds.), Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Wilkinson, G. S., 1984, ‘Reciprocal Food Sharing in the Vampire Bat’, Nature, 308: 181–184. –––, 1990, ‘Food Sharing in Vampire Bats’, Scientific American, 262, 2: 64–70. Wilson E. O., 1975, Sociobiology: the New Synthesis, Cambridge MA: Harvard University Press. ------------------------------------------------------------------ To change your Lit-Ideas settings (subscribe/unsub, vacation on/off, digest on/off), visit www.andreas.com/faq-lit-ideas.html