[lit-ideas] Re: Answer for Judy and others
- From: Judith Evans <judithevans001@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:43:24 +0000 (GMT)
>>>>>>>>>>>..
Judy:Oh sorry, I meant, so now you've read Sayeed Warsi's speech you've
modified your views.
Veronica, in reply
I don't need to modify my views as I have never condemned bigotry. Or hatred
against any person. What I have said is that I disapprove of some religious
practices. And the intrusion of religion into government.
<<<<<<<<<<<
I replied to, queried, your
>>>>>>>>>>>
The BBC America had a discussion about this lady and her comments. The one I
liked the best was the man who said that she ought not to have spoken about
anti-Muslim prejudice. Given her position, she ought to have spoken out about
how one of the causes of prejudice against Muslims is .
their refusal to except Western secular values.
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I wondered whether you'd now changed your mind about that i.e. whether you now
thought she'd fulfilled your and the BBC America's discussant's requirements
for mentioning prejudice against Muslims. I thought I'd explained this in a
later post. But clearly not.
Anyway
>>>>>>>>
I liked the Baroness's speech very much. I regret that you didn't catch some
of her comments re the meaning of "phobia." She says it's irrational fear.
<<<<<<<<<<
I didn't read the whole speech with massive care; as you may have gathered from
what I said to Donal about it, I don't actually expect any great things from
Warsi, a lot of people don't. She has said some good things, she is brave, and
composed in difficult situations (e.g. when the Tories fielded her to debate
Nick Griffin), but I don't expect her speeches to stand up to massive critical
analysis.
But since you raise this:
"A phobia (from the Greek: φόβος,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear") is an
irrational, intense and persistent fear of certain situations, activities,
things, animals, or people. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was caught by surprise re Disraeli, who, even though prime minister, was
depicted as a bag man. And right here is a big part of my point. Did any Jews
then threaten the life of any editor who allowed this? Did Jews assemble as a
mob at a newspaper office? Did they blow up a bus? See the difference? I
know only a few Muslims did this. Most of the rest are silent because they are
afraid too.
<<<<<<<<<<<
Oh right. Well I think the bus-blowing up was done by Muslims who objected to
the war on Iraq (etc.).
And other Muslims?
On 15 July 2005, London met to remember its dead. (London, and the whole of the
UK; and France; and Italy; and Spain; and... . James Wolcott wrote about this.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
last night in Trafalgar Square was a novel experience. A huge crowd, standing
in their thousands in blinding sunshine, to be told again and again that they
live in one of the greatest cities in the world.
Led by the mayor, Ken Livingstone, writers, politicians and faith leaders
competed with each other to lavish praise on London.
(cut)
"May God bless London and keep us a united community," said Richard Chartres,
the Bishop of London. "Grief is the language we speak today", said the Chief
Rabbi, Jonathan Sacks, "and let that grief unite us now."
When the leader of the Muslim Council of Britain, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, took the
podium, the applause rang out before he had opened his mouth - the crowd's way
of saying that it wanted no backlash against Britain's Muslims, no blind lust
for revenge.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jul/15/july7.uksecurity9
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Fatwa issued against suicide bombers"
Dr Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, a leading cleric in Pakistan, has written a
600-page religious ruling that says “suicide bombings and attacks against
civilian targets are not only condemned by Islam, but render the perpetrators
totally out of the fold of Islam, in other words, to be unbelievers”.
Dr Qadri runs the Minhaj-ul-Quran movement based in Lahore but also has many
British followers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/7351497/Fatwa-issued-against-suicide-bombing.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Muslim group Minhaj ul-Quran runs 'anti-terrorism' camp
A Muslim group has opened what it calls the UK's first summer camp against
terrorism.
The three-day event in Coventry is expected to see more than 1,000 young
Muslims at sessions teaching religious arguments to use against extremists.
The event has been organised by the Minhaj ul-Quran to promote a fatwa, or
religious ruling, against terrorism by its leader Dr Muhammad Tahir ul-Qadri.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
(1300 delegates attended)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10900478
Taimour Abdulwahab Al-Abdaly, the Swedish suicide bomber, was driven out of a
Luton mosque:
.......................
One day during morning prayers in the month of Ramadan – there were about 100
people there – the chairman of the mosque stood up and exposed him, warning
against terrorism, suicide bombings and so on.
‘He knew it was directed at him. He stormed out of the mosque. His radicalism
came from certain websites that preach extremist views.’
He added: ‘His preaching was a precursor to violence, but not a violent act.
Many Muslims share similar views but would never act violently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1338392/Stockholm-suicide-bomber-fanatical-mosque-went-Yemen-Sweden.html
(Others have been expelled from mosques for holding and promulgating extremist
views. It's all on the web but takes a while to find.)
I have no link for the next point, as yet -- the local paper's website is
useless.
Muslims organised their own demonstration about 7/7. It was a low key prayer
meeting. Cardiff Muslims hired coaches and publicised the time they'd leave
Cardiff, so anyone who wanted to go to London that day could get a lift.
Now about
>>>>>>>>>>
the applause rang out before he had opened his mouth - the crowd's way of
saying that it wanted no backlash against Britain's Muslims, no blind lust for
revenge.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Peter Oborne, a Conservative writer, has documented attacks on Muslims,
fabricated stories about Muslims run by the media, "violence, intolerance and
hatred", and so on
"The shameful Islamophobia at the heart of Britain's press"
http://www.theindependent.co.uk/news/media/the-shameful-islamophobia-at-the-heart-of-britains-press-861096.html
http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/dispatches/it+shouldnt+happen+to+a+muslim/2314592.html
http://www.channel4.com/news/media/pdfs/Muslims_under_siege_LR.pdf
back to your post
>>>>>>>>>>
I wonder how the British services responsible for the safety of their citizens
get information about terrorists if people want to attack Muslims in Britain?
<<<<<<<<<<<<
I wasn't quite sure what this meant, Veronica. Our police are indeed
responsible for the safety of British citizens (*all* British citizens. If
you're trying to say attacks on Muslims may make it more difficult for various
authoritiea here to win the confidence of Muslims, I'd say you're right. But
our police liaise with mosques. I assume our police also have undercover agents
in Muslim communities (as they have elsewhere), MI5 certainly does. They do the
usual things.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I am one of those who feels sorry when I see a Muslim a woman in a local park
in a black chador,
<<<<<<<<<<<
I do too, sometimes. But of course, it's a very very small minority of Muslim
women here who wear the chador. I'm against dress codes, but there's dress and
dress.
Finally -- yes, we all lack time -- of course this is a more secular country
than the US, in some ways, anyway.
Judy Evans, Cardiff
--- On Thu, 27/1/11, Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
From: Veronica Caley <molleo1@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [lit-ideas] Answer for Judy and others
To: lit-ideas@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Thursday, 27 January, 2011, 19:49
I originally sent this on Jan. 25th. Then I sent it on Jan. 26th. But it
doesn't get on the list. This is my third try.
It does show up in my Sent List but not on Incoming mail, so I gave it a
different subject heading.
Judy:Oh sorry, I meant, so now you've read Sayeed Warsi's speech you've
modified your views.
I don't need to modify my views as I have never condemned bigotry. Or hatred
against any person. What I have said is that I disapprove of some religious
practices. And the intrusion of religion into government.
I liked the Baroness's speech very much. I regret that you didn't catch some
of her comments re the meaning of "phobia." She says it's irrational fear. I
stated why I fear religions, Christianity also, because of what they do, not
because of what I imagine. I was caught by surprise re Disraeli, who, even
though prime minister, was depicted as a bag man. And right here is a big part
of my point. Did any Jews then threaten the life of any editor who allowed
this? Did Jews assemble as a mob at a newspaper office? Did they blow up a
bus? See the difference? I know only a few Muslims did this. Most of the
rest are silent because they are afraid too.
Re her comments of the Catholic president in the TV show "West Wing" I thought
was perfect. It shows the difference between what we allow in Western
countries regardless of what it says in the Bible, it is not the same in many
Arab countries re what it says in the Koran. So she makes one of my points
herself.
If it's OK for Toynbee and Liddle to admit to Islamophobia I guess they are
saying they are afraid of Islam but don't know why. I have stated why I am
afraid. So it's not a phobia. I wonder how the British services responsible
for the safety of their citizens get information about terrorists if people
want to attack Muslims in Britain?
The speech B. Warsi gave was very good. I like her thoughtfulness. But she is
incapable of seeing what others see in Islam. But the biggest problem is that
she is fighting a losing battle when a Muslim stands up and says something like
London belongs to everyone or to Muslims because God says so.
I am one of those who feels sorry when I see a Muslim a woman in a local park
in a black chador, with her whole body covered except her face, pushing a
little kid on a swing when the temperature is 95 degrees and the humidity is 89
%. Also, as a bike rider, one of the joys of life is feeling the wind blow
through one's hair. I wish she could experience it too. So it's not disdain
or disapproval as much as sympathy.
As concerning religion's destructive power in politics, did you notice the
silence concerning the mosque in New York.? No more political use for
Christians at the moment for attacking the mosque or the intention of the
Muslims. When there is political use, the attacks will resurface. In the
meanwhile, religion is playing an increasing role in my government which I
consider destructive. If you have time, watch what the US House of
Representatives is introducing for passage. Also you might know that "C
Street", a boarding house for conservative Congressmen, is so powerful that it
has gotten attention from people as powerful as Hilary Clinton.
And I don't mean negative attention. They have to be catered to. I could go
and and on re the speech but I am not going to live forever, so I will leave it
at that.
Veronica Caley
Milford, MI
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