[liblouis-liblouisxml] Math in Literary Contexts: Re: Re: Contractions near a slash
- From: "John J. Boyer" <johnjboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2009 22:10:44 -0600
If a mathematical expression occurs in a text that is presumed
nonmathematical and without markup, the only practical way to handle it
is to Follow the rules of the braille code for that situation as closely
as possible. Because there is no markup, the translation cannot conform
exactly to the rules, but it can be understandable.
Note that liblouis does not handle markup. That is done by liblouisxml.
John
On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 05:26:52PM -0800, John Gardner wrote:
> So are you proposing that the transcriber insert it as math and that
> liblouis assume that if it isn't marked as math, then it isn't math? I
> think this would be better than compromising good braille by trying to fix
> up bad files.
>
> John
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Mike Sivill
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2009 8:47 AM
> To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [liblouis-liblouisxml] Re: Contractions near a slash
>
> Not computer Braille. Braille Formats has Nemeth-like symbols for plus signs
> and equal signs when they appear in literary text. But something like pi
> equals 3 point one four should be transcribed in Nemeth code. In my opinion
> anything that is expected to come out in Nemeth code should be enclosed in
> MathML. The transcriber should be able to handle this.
> IMHO
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John Gardner
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:26 PM
> To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [liblouis-liblouisxml] Re: Contractions near a slash
>
> Back translation of braille will always have ambiguities. I do not believe
> that forward translation should be compromized in order to make back
> translation occasionally better.
>
> I have another question. Why should something not within math tags be
> translated as math braille? I was under the impression that expressions
> containing non-literary symbols such as = or + should be translated as
> computer braille. Is there a rule? Mike?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
> Boyer
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 9:09 PM
> To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [liblouis-liblouisxml] Re: Contractions near a slash
>
> After it has parsed and interpreted a MathML expression liblouisxml calls
> liblouis with a special math table to do the final translation.
> For Nemeth, this table is nemeth.ctb. It uses the include opcode to read
> another table called nemethdefs.cti. This table then includes the
> character-definitions table chardefs.cti. This may be one source of
> confusion. Perhaps nemethdefs.cti should contain all character definitions
> and leave the literary character-definitions table, chardefs.cti, to go its
> own way. However, the line between literary and math can be blurry. For
> example, a popular magazine article might contain the equation pi=3.14159,
> not enclosed in MathML but simply part of qe text. So the literary
> character-definition table must define symbols like = as math to get good
> translation and back-translation.
>
> John
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 03:04:53PM -0800, John Gardner wrote:
> > Am I confused or is something wrong with this philosophy? Math is
> > math, and literary is literary. Liblouis should regard anything not
> > enclosed in math tags as literary, shouldn't it? So the intermediate
> > representation needs to distinguish between symbols with math meanings
> > and the same symbols with their literary meaning. If it doesn't, then
> > all kinds of nasty things can happen.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John J.
> > Boyer
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:51 PM
> > To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: [liblouis-liblouisxml] Re: Contractions near a slash
> >
> > Translation of math is a joint effort of liblouisxml and liblouis.
> > liblouisxml makes a sort of intermediate representation of math.
> > liblouis has to know how to translate that.
> >
> > John
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 02:38:46PM -0800, Mike Sivill wrote:
> > > But with LibLouisXML handling MathML why do we need to define any
> > characters as math? Won't LouisXML know it's math when it encounters
> > the begin math tag? Isn't everything else handled as literary text?
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:liblouis-liblouisxml-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of John
> > > J. Boyer
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2009 2:24 PM
> > > To: liblouis-liblouisxml@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [liblouis-liblouisxml] Re: Contractions near a slash
> > >
> > > Lars,
> > >
> > > The slash is actually ambiguous. It can be either a mathematical
> > > symbol or a punctuation mark. The former is more accurate. It is
> > > used a lot between words in English also, but usually doesn't cause
> > > problems. The effects could be more severe in other languages. The
> > > solution is not obvious. Any change can cause worse problems, as you
> > discovered.
> > >
> > > John
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 01:22:14PM +0100, Lars Bj rndal wrote:
> > > > "John J. Boyer" <johnjboyer@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Lars,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have been thinking about this problem. One solution would be
> > > > > to define "han/hun" with its own table entry, like defining
> > > > > contractions that cover more than one word. This would be like
> > > > > either/or in English, where the table entry would be word
> > > > > either/or 15-24-456-34-123-1235 Note that this problem does not
> > > > > occur with and/or, because "and" is always contracted. There may
> > > > > need to be a change in the code, but I'm not sure what. A change
> > > > > might introduce worse problems than we have now.
> > > >
> > > > Thank you. The problem with defining expressions like han/hun, is
> > > > that people may put whatever words they want infront and behind
> > > > the slash sign. So it will break a lot of situations.
> > > >
> > > > Lars
> > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:21:51PM +0100, Lars Bj rndal wrote:
> > > > >> Hello!
> > > > >>
> > > > >> While still working on the Norwegian liblouis tables, I found
> > > > >> an error, that I need some help to fix:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The example is as follows: "han/hun" (he slash she). When using
> > > > >> xml2brl, the words "han" and "hun" is not contracted when the
> > > > >> slash is inbetween. In the table No-No-g0.utb, the slash
> > > > >> character is defined as math, which I suppose is correct. So
> > > > >> what's the trick here to get "han/hun" correct through liblouis?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Lars
> > > > For a description of the software and to download it go to
> > > > http://www.jjb-software.com
> > >
> > > --
> > > My websites:
> > > http://www.godtouches.org
> > > http://www.jjb-software.com
> > > Location: Madison, WI, USA
> > >
> > > For a description of the software and to download it go to
> > > http://www.jjb-software.com
> > >
> > > For a description of the software and to download it go to
> > > http://www.jjb-software.com
> >
> > --
> > John J. boyer; President, Chief Software Developer JJB Software, Inc.
> > http://www.jjb-software.com
> > Madison, WI USA
> > Developing software for people with disabilities
> >
> > For a description of the software and to download it go to
> > http://www.jjb-software.com
> >
> > For a description of the software and to download it go to
> > http://www.jjb-software.com
>
> --
> John J. Boyer, Executive Director
> GodTouches Digital Ministry, Inc.
> http://www.godtouches.org
> Madison, Wisconsin, USA
> Peace, Love, Service
>
> For a description of the software and to download it go to
> http://www.jjb-software.com
>
> For a description of the software and to download it go to
> http://www.jjb-software.com
>
> For a description of the software and to download it go to
> http://www.jjb-software.com
>
> For a description of the software and to download it go to
> http://www.jjb-software.com
--
John J. boyer; President, Chief Software Developer
JJB Software, Inc.
http://www.jjb-software.com
Madison, WI USA
Developing software for people with disabilities
For a description of the software and to download it go to
http://www.jjb-software.com
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