RE: update or new version of jfw?
- From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 17:38:39 -0700
A note about access in schools. The school only has to provide access =
aids
if they are funded by the government in some way. In other words a =
private
school just has to say we can not accommodate this persons needs and =
they
can revues them. =20
-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On =
Behalf
Of Angel
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:02 PM
To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
Doesn't the ada mandate public phisilities be made accessible. Doesn't =
this
include computers?
----- Original Message -----
From: <ptusing@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> Hi,
> If computers were so accessible at libraries, then how come the Bill=20
> and Linda Gates Foundation which actually does a super job endowing=20
> libraries does not include software for visually impaired and Blind:=20
> and that Most State Libraries used by the Blind are open only during =
> working hours. Many private colleges will--even if they have scanners=20
> and screen readers--often open their libraries only to their students=20
> and not the
the
> public.
> I use libraries all the time when I can find accessible ones.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:38 PM
> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
>
>
> > no we do not.
> >
> > Johnnie Apple Seed
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:44 PM
> > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> >
> >
> > We all have access to computers by way of our regional library or=20
> > the general public one. They have accessible computers. Many blind =
> > people
> who
> > can't afford one of their own use those avenues to write resumes and
> access
> > the world's news.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James" <james@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 10:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> >
> >
> > > First off, every year? I suppose if multiple major versions were=20
> > > to
come
> > > out it'd be a requirement, but at the rate FS is going the current =
> > > SMA should last a minimum of 2 years. So buying one every year=20
> > > would be effectively wasting what little extra money you do have.=20
> > > Secondly, the number of people, period, that is blind, sighted,=20
> > > deaf, paralized, whatever, who are without computers and/or=20
> > > internet access
is
> > > dwindling. Quickly. This is simply because, not only is it a=20
> > > necessity
> for
> > > blind people, but for everyone. Virtually everything nowadays is=20
> > > done
on
> a
> > > computer. Even cash registers nowadays are computerised. If you=20
> > > don't
> have
> > > a computer, or don't know how to use one, you'll be left behind
whether
> > you
> > > can read the fine print or not.
> > >
> > > Thirdly, I wasn't saying that for the sake of saying "ha ha, I can =
> > > get
> it
> > > cheaper". It's obvious things will be a lot more pricy than if you
were
> > > taking the mainstream route. But, while admitedly it doesn't seem
fair,
> > > adaptive technology companies need to stay in business, too. It
doesn't
> > > matter whether it's a small market or not. The costs of=20
> > > marketting, purchasing the products for sale, wages, and whatever=20
> > > else they need
to
> > pay
> > > for is rising whether they charge a hundred or a thousand dollars=20
> > > for
a
> > > service. If they can't cover those costs, then that company that=20
> > > just supposedly ripped you off by selling you a scanner for $600=20
> > > has also
> just
> > > sold its last scanner, because it'll be out of business inside of=20
> > > 6
> > months.
> > > To put all this in perspective, I purchased a laptop from a=20
> > > company in Toronto 3 years ago. I saw the same laptop at a Future=20
> > > Shop store a
> month
> > > later for $2000 less. Could I have bought that instead? You bet.
Should
> I
> > > have? Probably. But the same company that sold me my laptop also=20
> > > sells
> > JAWS
> > > and other such programs. In fact, not long after I bought my=20
> > > laptop, a friend of mine bought JFW from the same company. Now, if =
> > > everyone
> decided
> > > to just buy what they could off the mainstream market, the smaller
> market
> > > companies would be left without a means of covering the cost of
running
> a
> > > business, and voila, same problem as I just mentioned. Add to=20
> > > that, adaptive technology companies know how to set up the=20
> > > equipment so
things
> > > like JFW won't sputter and die on install. So in a sense, you're=20
> > > also paying for the convenience. And, like all things convenient,=20
> > > it'll
cost
> > more.
> > >
> > > OH, and, before I forget... I would strongly recommend against
flocking
> to
> > > the company I got my SMA through. By the time all the prices and
> shipping
> > > information gets worked out, you'll be paying that much in US=20
> > > dollars
> > anyway.
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 09:49 AM 10/24/2004, you wrote:
> > > >I guess it depends on what you consider a necessity. If you=20
> > > >think it
> is
> > not
> > > >a necessity to keep up with what's going on in the world, I guess =
> > > >a
> > computer
> > > >is not a necessity. I pay for my broadband connection along with =
> > > >my
> > cable
> > > >because I get it cheaper that way. I pay for my phone which just =
> > > >got
> cut
> > by
> > > >half the cost because I spent money to avail myself of a cheaper
> service.
> > I
> > > >get a contract here and there because I am a private contractor=20
> > > >but
> > mostly I
> > > >live on less than 400 dollars a month. It costs a lot to keep
> groceries
> > in
> > > >the house and I do not live alone so The reality is that there=20
> > > >isn't
> much
> > > >money available for "luxuries" like a jaws sma. Were I in a=20
> > > >position
> to
> > > >keep it up, I'd buy one every year, but to sit here and tell me=20
> > > >that
I
> > can
> > > >get anything I want because I buy junk is bounding on the=20
> > > >ludicrous
and
> > > >rediculous. By the time I get done paying my bills, I'm lucky to
have
> > the
> > > >money to cover the charge on my checking account, a paultry 12
dollars
> a
> > > >month. Lest someone think I am writing to complain or out of=20
> > > >anger,
> > think
> > > >again. I am writing in response to this idea that we can all=20
> > > >just go
> out
> > > >and plunk down money for something that we may feel we need that=20
> > > >has
an
> > > >arbetrary fixed cost and then we find out that it can actually be =
> > > >had
> for
> > > >less. I think we should all flock to The dealer who sells james=20
> > > >his
> sma
> > > >updates and or tell fs that we know it can be had for less=20
> > > >directly
> > because
> > > >it is being sold for less elsewhere.
> > > >
> > > >So many blind people are in such desperate streights that they=20
> > > >pay an organization just for the pleasure of reading inferiorly=20
> > > >produced
books
> > on
> > > >their computers. I don't think you have to keep up your jaws sma =
> > > >for
> > that
> > > >so they read these books and some of them are even lucky enough=20
> > > >or
> smart
> > > >enough or whatever you want to call it that they have scanners=20
> > > >and
> > software
> > > >to convert some of the books for the organization as vollunteers. =
=20
> > > >I
> know
> > > >there is a fair amount of purchasing power out there among the=20
> > > >blind,
I
> > also
> > > >know though that there are a lot of people not on this list and=20
> > > >not connected to the internet and who don't have the latest and=20
> > > >greatest
or
> > even
> > > >a computer because they simply don't have the resources.
> > > >
> > > >Recently, on another list, we were told that if you want a job as =
> > > >a
> blind
> > > >person, you have to use a computer if only to write your resume=20
> > > >and
> send
> > out
> > > >requests for information and to search for jobs. The computer is =
> > > >a
> vital
> > > >part of our daily lives and everyone who doesn't have one and has =
> > > >the
> > desire
> > > >to obtain one should have one and an internet connection. =20
> > > >Computers
> have
> > > >made a huge difference in how we live act and think and if you=20
> > > >don't
> have
> > > >one, it's like being doubly blind.
> > > >
> > > >Johnnie Apple Seed
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Angel" <angel238@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >Sent: Sunday, October 24, 2004 9:13 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Look at the junk blind people on fixed incomes do purchase. If
someone
> > > >wants something badly enough they will buy it. I think Jaws is=20
> > > >well
> > worth
> > > >the amount spent on it. Using computers is not a necessity yet.
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "hank" <hank@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > >Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:13 AM
> > > >Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > if fs lowered the price would more customers purchase it? just =
> > > > > curious people on a fix income and the average blind person=20
> > > > > can't get jaws
> and
> > > >when
> > > > > the blind agencies won't get them for the blind person then=20
> > > > > there
> > screwed.
> > > > > I am lucky mine helped me but I no firneds who were not so=20
> > > > > lucky. the 900 bucks is personally a out ragious price small=20
> > > > > market or
not.
> > > > > just my 2 cents.
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "david poehlman"=20
> > > > > <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 4:35 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Jim and all,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Three things.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1> there's no reason the bugs as they usually are cannot be
fixed
> in
> > a
> > > >new
> > > > > > release along with adding some new features.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2> you said there used to be a company. Why do you think it =
> > > > > > 2> is
> > gone?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3> You talk about adding support, but where is the money=20
> > > > > > 3> going
to
> > come
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > to do this? I'm not saying you are rong or that we should=20
> > > > > > not
> have
> > a
> > > > > > better
> > > > > > product, but the money to do the things you suggest needs to =
> > > > > > be
> > there
> > > >and
> > > > > > by
> > > > > > and large in today's at market, it is not there. We need
support
> > for
> > > > > > instance to a much wider array of tools than we have, but=20
> > > > > > there
is
> > only
> > > > > > support for applications for which there is money provided.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Johnnie Apple Seed
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "jim grimsby" <jimgrims@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > > Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 6:18 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi, well you can have working and fast. There was a company
that
> I
> > will
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > not
> > > > > > name here that did just that. Yes there were bugs but the=20
> > > > > > bugs
> got
> > =3D
> > > > > > fixed
> > > > > > quick. New features came along all the time and new=20
> > > > > > releaces
> > happened
> > > > > > offten fixing bubug that came up and adding features when
needed.
> > As =3D
> > > > > > you
> > > > > > said quite a lot of the time new bugs were interduced but we
> already
> > =3D
> > > > > > have
> > > > > > that problem as it is. For example there were no problems=20
> > > > > > with
> the
> > type
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > key
> > > > > > function in jaws 5.0 there is now. Lots of bugs were fixed.
But
> if
> > a =3D
> > > > > > lot
> > > > > > of these new features and bugs were realeced to the user as=20
> > > > > > they
> > were =3D
> > > > > > coded
> > > > > > they would have been reported faster and fewer changes would
have
> > been =3D
> > > > > > maid
> > > > > > in the mean time. As for jaws 6.0 we are not ready for a=20
> > > > > > major
> > upgraid
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > yet.
> > > > > > To many things need to be done and fixed so updates to the
program
> > about
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > 5
> > > > > > or six I would think need to come out in the mean time=20
> > > > > > corecting
=3D
> > > > > > problems.
> > > > > > If you ask me 6 should come out about the time ms releces=20
> > > > > > the
next
> =3D
> > > > > > version
> > > > > > of windows. It should come out on the same day as that=20
> > > > > > version
> and
> > they
> > > > > > should be able to anounce support for that version. In the=20
> > > > > > mean
> > time =3D
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > should be working on delivering the things they said they=20
> > > > > > were
> going
> > to
> > > > > > deliver and fix what needs fixing. Also some one needs to=20
> > > > > > get
on
> > this =3D
> > > > > > list
> > > > > > and all the other lists for jaws and start reading the mail=20
> > > > > > that
> > comes =3D
> > > > > > in so
> > > > > > that they can aid the users and add the remarks to the data
base.
> > This
> > > > > > company I will not name here did just that and I my self saw =
> > > > > > the
> > things
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > brought to the list being fixed and a lot of my own ideas=20
> > > > > > went
in
> to
> > the
> > > > > > program. Why? Because they heard there users. We as users=20
> > > > > > need
> to
> > =3D
> > > > > > start
> > > > > > making noise we need to tell them that we want to be heard. =
> > > > > > We
> need
> > to
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > tell
> > > > > > them that we will shell out our money but we want fast and=20
> > > > > > good
> > servus =3D
> > > > > > more
> > > > > > bank for our buck. We want a tol free number for support. =20
> > > > > > The
> > other
> > > > > > company I speak of had it. We want more updates with more
things
> > fixed.
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > One
> > > > > > every lets say 6 weeks. Even it if is a new script added on =
> > > > > > the
> jfw
> > =3D
> > > > > > lite
> > > > > > web sight is tested by a tech and is desided it works well=20
> > > > > > to
> > provide =3D
> > > > > > access
> > > > > > to a program then it should be a part of jaws. There should =
> > > > > > be
a
> > page =3D
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > the fs web sight for users to add there scripts for=20
> > > > > > evaluation.
If
> > they
> > > > > > provide access to a program at all they should be included=20
> > > > > > with
> > jaws. =3D
> > > > > > Now I
> > > > > > know what you are going to say then they are going to have=20
> > > > > > to
> > support =3D
> > > > > > said
> > > > > > scripts. Yep that is right. So some one had better be=20
> > > > > > looking
at
> =3D
> > > > > > thoughs
> > > > > > scripts very cairfully. Or if they do not wish to support=20
> > > > > > that
> > script
> > > > > > because they did not write it then an email address to the
person
> > that =3D
> > > > > > did
> > > > > > write it should be provided. Every support list for jaws=20
> > > > > > every
one
> > of =3D
> > > > > > them
> > > > > > should be listed on the fs web sight. And articals from=20
> > > > > > this
list
> > that
> > > > > > answer users questions should be added to the support bass.=20
> > > > > > Now
as
> > for
> > > > > > autherasation copy protection is a bad idea always has been
always
> > will
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > be.
> > > > > > The begest problem I have with jaws is copy protection. I=20
> > > > > > in
the
> > course
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > using my pc have lost keys have had them damaged all kinds=20
> > > > > > of
> things
> > =3D
> > > > > > open
> > > > > > book uses a key number system window eyes does conect out=20
> > > > > > loud
> does
> > jaws
> > > > > > should also. I do not like wpa I am sure I am not going to=20
> > > > > > like
> > this =3D
> > > > > > new
> > > > > > internet key system. As you can see we would be living the
best
> of
> > all
> > > > > > worlds here we would have fast access using the free sorce
system
> > for
> > > > > > scripts updated as needed by fs. We would have the bugs=20
> > > > > > fixed
in
> a
> > =3D
> > > > > > timely
> > > > > > manor. We would have the support we deserv. We would have=20
> > > > > > a
> voice
> > in =3D
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > creation of the program we use every day. David p. makes a=20
> > > > > > good
> > point =3D
> > > > > > when
> > > > > > he says that jaws for now is a head of the rest. It is. How
long
> > can it
> > > > > > stay there with out the voice of the user. Remember windows=20
> > > > > > it
> self
> > has
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > this
> > > > > > problem ms is not hearing the user. And this is why linix=20
> > > > > > bassed
> > systems
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > becoming more and more the rage. I want to be heard I want=20
> > > > > > my
> voice
> > to
> > > > > > count I am sure you do also. If it is not soon fs is going=20
> > > > > > to
> find
> > that
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > it
> > > > > > is no longer ahead. Of course everyone but mean seems to be
happy
> > with
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > status quo here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > > [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> > =3D
> > > > > > Behalf
> > > > > > Of James
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:20 PM
> > > > > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You can't fix what you don't know is wrong. As I said in=20
> > > > > > another
> > email =3D
> > > > > > just=3D20
> > > > > > posted, it may take until the next version to find a bug. IF
they
> =3D
> > > > > > followed=3D20
> > > > > > your advice, we'd have a supremely buggy version of JFW 6.0=20
> > > > > > with
a
> > > >less=3D20
> > > > > > than stable internet authorization, working anything but
reliably
> > > >with=3D20
> > > > > > remote access, and freezing or just plain not cooperating on
some
> of
> > the
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > > more advanced java-based websites. Then you'll be=20
> > > > > > complaining
> > because=3D20
> > > > > > they're pushing things out to quickly, and not taking time=20
> > > > > > to
make
> > > >sure=3D20
> > > > > > things work before they're released. Then, you'll be looking =
> > > > > > for
> > another
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > > screenreader, because this one's just plain unreliable. I=20
> > > > > > say
> again,
> > =3D
> > > > > > take=3D20
> > > > > > your pick. You can't have working, and fast.
> > > > > > James,
> > > > > > List Admin
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 11:08 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
> > > > > >>Here here right now is what I say and as for your remark=20
> > > > > >>about
> > > >talking=3D20
> > > > > >>=3D3D about it here if we talk about it here maybe some of =
us=20
> > > > > >>note
I
> > have
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>already =3D3D done
> > > > > >>so will speak to fs regularly and voice the fact that we=20
> > > > > >>want it
> > right =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>now
> > > > > >>and maybe more betas will get posted and maybe updates will
happen
> > more
> > > > > >>often. =3D3D20
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>-----Original Message-----
> > > > > >>From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > >>[mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On
> > =3D3D
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>Behalf Of James
> > > > > >>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 6:40 PM
> > > > > >>To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >>Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>But, since this isn't a Freedom Scientific list, debating=20
> > > > > >>about
> > it=3D20
> > > > > >>here=3D3D20 won't do much except make everyone angrier at =
the
> > > >situation.=3D20
> > > > > >>Truth is,=3D3D20 they're doing what they can with what they=20
> > > > > >>have.
> > Every =3D
> > > > > > new=3D20
> > > > > >>version that=3D3D20 comes out has something new that some=20
> > > > > >>want,
and
> =3D
> > > > > > leaves=3D20
> > > > > >>some others =3D3D wanting=3D3D20 something else. People =
wanted=20
> > > > > >>to be
> > able =3D
> > > > > > to=3D20
> > > > > >>use JFW without an external=3D3D20 synthasizer, or for that
matter,
> =3D
> > > > > > without=3D20
> > > > > >>any additional synthasizing=3D3D20 hardware, period. They=20
> > > > > >>finally
> got
> > =3D
> > > > > > that=3D20
> > > > > >>in version 3.0. Then FS needed =3D3D to=3D3D20
> > > > > >>make it work with Windows Millennium. Most of that was done=20
> > > > > >>by
> 3.5,
> > =3D
> > > > > > the=3D3D20
> > > > > >>rest by 4.0. The demand presented itself for Windows XP.=20
> > > > > >>4.02
> > covered =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>that.=3D3D20
> > > > > >>The demand presented itself to work with some of today's=20
> > > > > >>more =3D
> > > > > > advanced=3D3D20
> > > > > >>website technology, which prompted 4.5. 4.51 was released=20
> > > > > >>when
> some
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>parts=3D3D20
> > > > > >>of tat technology were upgraded slightly, including MSN
Messenger.
> =3D
> > > > > > And=3D3D20
> > > > > >>that's just a small example.
> > > > > >>The absolute truth? If FS waited to release all of these
features
> in
> > =3D
> > > > > > one =3D3D
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>major version, we'd still be sitting on version 4.0 waiting=20
> > > > > >>for
> > > >things=3D20
> > > > > >>=3D3D like=3D3D20 increased functionality with Windows XP. =
We=20
> > > > > >>have
to
> > keep =3D
> > > > > > up=3D20
> > > > > >>as best we =3D3D can=3D3D20
> > > > > >>with the mainstream market, because that's what this and=20
> > > > > >>other =3D
> > > > > > products=3D3D20
> > > > > >>deal with. Unfortunately, if you keep up, you don't do it=20
> > > > > >>right
> and
> > =3D
> > > > > > you=3D3D20
> > > > > >>have problems. IF you don't keep up, you do it right and you
have
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>different=3D3D20
> > > > > >>problems. Window Eyes is a perfect example of this. Sure,=20
> > > > > >>they
> > already =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>have=3D3D20
> > > > > >>remote access integrated into their software. But, is it=20
> > > > > >>done
> right?
> > =3D
> > > > > > Not =3D3D
> > > > > >>if=3D3D20
> > > > > >>you go by some of the comments made on this list. Could it=20
> > > > > >>be
done
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>better?=3D3D20
> > > > > >>Most definitely. But, again, users of Window Eyes would be
waiting
> > for =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>it,=3D3D20
> > > > > >>just like users of JFW are. The real question is, which=20
> > > > > >>would
you
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>prefer?=3D3D20
> > > > > >>Right, or right now?
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>James,
> > > > > >>List Admin
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>At 09:30 PM 10/21/2004, you wrote:
> > > > > >> >But for someone else's money, get it right first. Whose=20
> > > > > >> >money
> > is=3D20
> > > > > >> >worth=3D3D20 more?
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >Bruce
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >--
> > > > > >> >Bruce Toews
> > > > > >> >E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > >> >Web Site (including info on my weekly=20
> > > > > >> >commentaries):=3D3D20=3D20 http://www.ogts.net For the =
best=20
> > > > > >> >oldies anywhere visit=3D3D20=3D20=20
> > > > > >> >http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, jim grimsby wrote:
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> > > Well for my money get it out get it out fast and fix=20
> > > > > >> > > bugs
> as=3D20
> > > > > >> > > they=3D3D20 come =3D3D3D up please and thank you!
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > > From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]=3D20
> > > > > >> > > On=3D3D20 =3D3D3D Behalf Of Bruce Toews
> > > > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 2:20 PM
> > > > > >> > > To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > > Subject: RE: update or new version of jfw?
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > The reality is that FS is caught between a rock and a=20
> > > > > >> > > hard
> > place=3D20
> > > > > >> > > in=3D3D20 =3D3D3D terms=3D3D3D20 of PR when it comes to =
> > > > > >> > > release
> > dates. =3D
> > > > > > Release=3D20
> > > > > >> > > a =3D3D
> > > > > >>product=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > > too soon, and =3D3D3D it's=3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > > bug-ridden, and everyone whines about how they should=20
> > > > > >> > > have
> > > >wated.=3D20
> > > > > >> > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>Wait =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > > and=3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > > try to deal with bugs, and everyone whines about how=20
> > > > > >> > > the
> other
> > guy
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>got =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > > it=3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > > out sooner, why can't they? There's no winning.
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > Bruce
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > --=3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > > Bruce Toews
> > > > > >> > > E-mail and MSN/Windows Messenger: coke_drinker@xxxxxxxx =
> > > > > >> > > Web
> > Site=3D20
> > > > > >> > > (including info on my weekly commentaries):=3D3D20 =3D
> > > > > > http://www.ogts.net=3D20
> > > > > >> > > =3D3D3D For the best oldies anywhere visit=3D3D20=3D20=20
> > > > > >> > > http://www.treasureislandoldies.com
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > On Thu, 21 Oct 2004, Chip Orange wrote:
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >> Well, being a software developer myself, I know that
> > release=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> dates=3D3D20 are =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >> always a tug of war between when you want it ready and
when
> =3D
> > > > > > it=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> is=3D3D3D20 really ready. Different companies have
> differing=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> policies =3D3D
> > > > > >>as=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >> to=3D3D3D20 exactly which wins in the struggle.
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >> Chip
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > > > > >> > >>> From: jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> [mailto:jfw-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >>> On Behalf Of hank
> > > > > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 3:06 PM
> > > > > >> > >>> To: jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw? =
=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> interesting they told me they didn't have a release =
date.
> > funky
> > > > > >> > >>> ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > >> > >>> From: "Troy Burnham" <tburnham@xxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > >> > >>> To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > > >> > >>> Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 11:30 AM
> > > > > >> > >>> Subject: Re: update or new version of jfw? =
=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> A friend of mine called FS the other day and was=20
> > > > > >> > >>>> told
that
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>a=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> new version,
> > > > > >> > >>>> probably 6.0, will be out around the end of the year
> > I=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> think it was. I
> > > > > >> > >>>> don't know what will be in it though or if that is
> > even=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> accurate.=3D3D3D20 Troy
> > > > > >> > >>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>> On Thursday 10/21/2004 01:17 PM, Jarrod Jicha said:
> > > > > >> > >>>>> does anyone know or has anyone heard anything=20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> about=3D20 when=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> either an update,
> > > > > >> > >>>>> or a new version of jfw is coming out? was just =
=3D3D
> > > > > >>wondering,=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> also, does
> > > > > >> > >>>>> anyone either know, or have they heard what will be =
> > > > > >> > >>>>> in
> =3D3D
> > > > > >>the=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> new version?
> > > > > >> > >>>>> --
> > > > > >> > >>>>> To post a message to the list, send it to =3D
> > > > > > jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> To=3D3D3D20 unsubscribe from this mailing list, =
send=20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> a
> > message =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe =
> > > > > >> > >>>>> in
> =3D3D
> > > > > >>the=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> subject line.
> > > > > >> > >>>>> Archives located at:
> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >>>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post=20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> received
> =3D3D
> > > > > >>from=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> the list, or
> > > > > >> > >>>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to
the=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>>> list.=3D3D20 Rather =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >>>>> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > >>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>> --
> > > > > >> > >>>> To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>To=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a=20
> > > > > >> > >>>> message=3D20 to=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20 =3D3D
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > >>>> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe
in=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> the=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> subject line.
> > > > > >> > >>>> Archives located at:
//www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >>>>
> > > > > >> > >>>> If you have any concerns about the list, post=20
> > > > > >> > >>>> received
=3D3D
> > > > > >>from=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> the list, or=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> the way the list is being run, do not post them to
the=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>>> list.=3D3D3D20 =3D3D
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > >>>> Rather=3D3D3D3D20 contact the list owner =
at=3D3D20=3D20=20
> > > > > >> > >>>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> --
> > > > > >> > >>> To post a message to the list, send it to
jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > =3D3D
> > > > > >>To=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a =
message=3D20=20
> > > > > >> > >>> to=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D3D20=3D3D20 =
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > >> > >>> with
the
> > > >word=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> unsubscribe in the=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D
> > > > > >>=3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > > subject=3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> line. Archives located at:
> > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >>> =3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> If you have any concerns about the list, post=20
> > > > > >> > >>> received=3D20 from=3D3D3D3D20 =3D3D
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > >>> the list, or the way the list is being run, do not=20
> > > > > >> > >>> post
=3D3D
> > > > > >>them=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> to the list. Rather contact the list owner
> > at=3D3D3D3D20=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > >>> jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx =3D3D3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >> --
> > > > > >> > >> To post a message to the list, send it to
> jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> To=3D3D3D20 =3D3D
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> > >> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
> > to=3D3D3D20=3D3D20
> > > >=3D
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> > >> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
> > the=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> subject=3D3D3D20 line. Archives located =
at:=3D3D20=3D20=20
> > > > > >> > >> //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > >> If you have any concerns about the list, post received
> from=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> the=3D3D20 list,=3D3D3D20 or the way the list is being =
> > > > > >> > >> run, do
> not
> > =3D
> > > > > > post=3D20
> > > > > >> > >> them to =3D3D
> > > > > >>the=3D3D20
> > > > > >> > >> list. Rather =3D3D3D
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >> contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > >>
> > > > > >> > > --
> > > > > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to=20
> > > > > >> > > jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D
> > > > > > To=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message
to=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in
the=3D20
> > > > > >> > > subject=3D3D20 line. Archives located at:=3D20=20
> > > > > >> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received=20
> > > > > >> > > from
=3D
> > > > > > the=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > > list, or =3D3D3D the way the list is being run, do not=20
> > > > > >> > > post
> them
> > > >to=3D20
> > > > > >> > > the=3D3D20 list. Rather contact =3D3D3D the list owner=20
> > > > > >> > > at=3D20 jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > --
> > > > > >> > > To post a message to the list, send it to=20
> > > > > >> > > jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
=3D
> > > > > > To=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > > > >> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in=20
> > > > > >> > the=3D20 subject=3D3D20 line.
> > > > > >> > > Archives located at:=20
> > > > > >> > > //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received=20
> > > > > >> > > from
=3D
> > > > > > the=3D3D20=3D20
> > > > > >> > > list,
> > > > > >> > or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the
> > list.=3D20
> > > > > >> > Rather contact the list owner at=20
> > > > > >> > jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >> > >
> > > > > >> >--
> > > > > >> >To post a message to the list, send it to=20
> > > > > >> >jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To=3D20
> > > > > >> >unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=3D20 =
> > > > > >> >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> subject
> > =3D
> > > > > > =3D3D
> > > > > >>line.
> > > > > >> >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >> >
> > > > > >> >If you have any concerns about the list, post received=20
> > > > > >> >from
> the=3D20
> > > > > >> >list,=3D3D20 or the way the list is being run, do not post =
> > > > > >> >them
to
> > > >the=3D20
> > > > > >> >list. Rather=3D3D20 contact the list owner at
> > jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>--
> > > > > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message =
to=3D20=20
> > > > > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
> > subject=3D20
> > > > > >>line. Archives located at:=20
> > > > > >>//www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > >>the
> > list,=3D20
> > > > > >>or =3D3D the way the list is being run, do not post them to=20
> > > > > >>the
> > list.=3D20
> > > > > >>Rather contact =3D3D the
> > > > > >>list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>--
> > > > > >>To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > > > >>jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
subject
> =3D
> > > > > > line.
> > > > > >>Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >>If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > >>the
> > list,=3D20
> > > > > >>or
> > > > > >>the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
> > Rather=3D20
> > > > > >>contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
subject
> > line.
> > > > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > > the
> > list, or
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > > > > > Rather
> > contact
> > > >=3D
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
subject
> > line.
> > > > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > > the
> > list, or
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > > > > > Rather
> > contact
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx=20
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > > > > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the
subject
> > line.
> > > > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > > the
> > list, or
> > > > > > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.
> Rather
> > > > > > contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To =
> > > > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > > >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> > > >subject
> line.
> > > > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > > >
> > > > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from=20
> > > > > the
> list,
> > or
> > > >the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > > >Rather
> > contact
> > > >the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > > >unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> > > >subject
> line.
> > > >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > >
> > > >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > > >list,
> or
> > the
> > > >way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
contact
> > the
> > > >list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > > >unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > > >jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the=20
> > > >subject
> line.
> > > >Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > > >
> > > >If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > > >list,
> or
> > > >the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list.=20
> > > >Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject=20
> > line.
> > > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> > >
> > > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > > list,
or
> > the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
> contact
> > the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > --
> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to=20
> > jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject=20
> > line. Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >
> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > list, or
> the
> > way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather=20
> > contact
> the
> > list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> > --
> > To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> > unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
> jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject=20
> line.
> > Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
> >
> > If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the=20
> > list, or
> the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather
contact
> the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>
> --
> To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To=20
> unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
> Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
>
> If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list,=20
> or
the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather =
contact
the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or =
the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact =
the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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