Re: screen reader superiority

  • From: "Yadiel" <yadosotomayor@xxxxxxxxxxx>
  • To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  • Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 13:21:43 -0400

Well then, do you know where I can find any good quality free or low cost speech synthesizer and where I could find them? Also, there's something. If the windows speech synthesizer sucks, and the good quality ones cost some amount of money, then it is not free then. Just a thought. 


--------------------------------------------------
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 1:06 PM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
You don't have to use the voice that comes with NVDA. You can use any other voices on your system that are not tied to a particular screen reader. If NVDA included a commercially available speech synthesizer, it wouldn't be free any more. 

Gary King
w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message ----- From: "Yadiel" <yadosotomayor@xxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority
I agree with the Snapshots or whatever they are called with NVDA. I only want this to happen to NVDA and that is for them to switch the sitesasor. The voice that it has right now in lack for a better word, sucks!. If they change it to a better sounding robotic voice like the one on jaws and or window-eyes, I'll switch to NVDA without problem. Meanwhile, I'll keep paying for my SMAs. 


Yadiel

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Alex Midence" <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, August 09, 2010 12:13 PM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority


Whoa!  Just went to Parham's link.  Those snapshots are exciting to
see.  Wish FS did something similar.  Reading the change log is like
watching the software grow in functionality right in front of you.
"changed user's guide to say our software does support such and such
ever since we added such and such."  Entries seem to be made weekly if
not daily with anythinf from minor changes to the code to major
milestones.  Something pretty big seems to happen in it like every
other week or so.  Makes me wish i knew Python really well and c++
much better than I do now so I could contribute to making it better.
this screen reader looks like it's going to seriously give FS and GW
and System Access to go a real run for their money in the next year or
so now that display hooks are added.  In the next two or three, they
might have a hard time convincing people to pay for what's available
for free.  Good times are ahead, folks!  I say this because either Fs
and GW Micro will be jolted out of their complacency (I think GW is
actually not as bad as FS in this department) and make the stuff we
pay for better or, we'll get a nice, free screen reader to use that
does as much as or more than Jaws or Window eyes.  Really impressed
with NVDA and Open Office, for instance.

Alex M

On 8/8/10, Dhunthausen <dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Thanks Tom, I'll take a look.

Drew

Drew Hunthausen
714-296-7111
Mailto: dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Lange" <trlange@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority



Hi Drew,
NVDA stands for Nonvisual Desktop Access.  NVDA is a free, open-source
screen reader.  If you want to read about it and try it out, go to:

www.nvda-project.org

Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dhunthausen" <dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority



What is NVDA? I don't know if I missed something. thanks

Drew

Drew Hunthausen
714-296-7111
Mailto: dhunthausen@xxxxxxxxx
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: screen reader superiority



I would say that even if you can't afford another screen reader, you
should have the free NVDA screen reader on your system. The first thing 
I do when my speech goes silent is to hit the NVDA hot key.  If NVDA
starts speaking, I know it's a JAWS crash; if nothing happens, I know
it's more than likely a computer crash. NVDA works better than Narrator, 

which is included with Windows, and it lets you choose the speech
synthesizer you want to use if it is SAPI compliant.  It has its own
built-in speech synthesizer, but you probably wouldn't want to use it. It lets me finish what I'm doing before I either try to restart JAWS or 
reboot.

Gary King
w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kerri" <shalom75@xxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:58 PM
Subject: screen reader superiority
Hello, all. It is as has previously been mentioned, beneficial to all to have one other screen reader besides Jaws. The sighted folks use two
or more graphics programs so why are we any different? It is best not 
to rely excusively on one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:54 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
As for Zdenek's questions about which screen reader is better, I just 
suggested he try them out for himself.  No one screen reader meets
everyone's needs.
As for Armond's petition idea, I expressed my opinion of the value of 
such
petitions based on past performance.
And as for your admonishment, I see now that your name is Gerald, not 
James;
I thought for a minute there that you were the list moderator.

Gary King
w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
Why don't you guys take this discussion off list? If you want to keep 

bashing FS or discuss alternatives to JAWS, do it elsewhere.

Gerald
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
but thee real question is is windoweyes better than jaws? In which 
areas is it better in which areas is it worse?
Zdenek

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!



Zddenek,
The other major screen reader is Window-Eyes. If you monitor the 
GW-Micro
list, you will see that users of this screen reader have problems 
with it as
well.

As for the free screen readers, if a user's needs are simple,
reading email,
surfing the net, etc., one of them will probably meet his needs.
Otherwise,
he will have to pay and pay again to keep up-to-date.

As for the FBI, which you have mentioned more than once in your
messages,
now that they have your email address from reading the JAWS list, 
they have
probably tracked you down already and are closing in on you as you 
read
this.  Run!

Gary King
w4wkz@xxxxxxxxxxxxx



----- Original Message -----
From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!



can someone finally spelled out thee real alternatives for me,
which of
them are better than jaws please! I hear on this list that there 
are real
alternatives but nothing specific as to what is bbetter than jaws 
if you
know an alternative superior to jaws just say it so all of us could benefit. For instance the authors of linux distribution vinux admit 

that
the speech software for linux is still more limited tthan jaws is. 
I don't
feel comfortable buying a mac, specially since FBI cqan get a hold 
of my
info and as well as importantly the cost of mac acceeds the cost of upgrade of jaws many times. So any real superior alternatives, or 
is it
just a talk and being fed up with a corporation named freedom
scientific?
I wonder whether users of other screen readers don't have similar 
complains about their own software.
Many thanks ofr a clear and specific answer to which software is 
superior
to jaws.
Zddenek

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dorothy Ingram-Gorban" <Dorothy.ingram-gorban@xxxxxxxxx>
To: "org, jfw@freelists. " <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
John it has obviously served you well in its time and may continue 

,but
it
is a wise manufacturer of any product who  listens to its
customers,and
they
are the blind world wide, some have never been subsidised but used 

their
savings, some on this list are in residential nursing homes on a 
fixed
income, and still loyal to fs, but if fs fails to listen,now of 
all times
to
the concerns of its customer base it will fail in the same manner 
many
famous products have done in the past, for the first time there 
real
choices, and whether or not fs is wise I think will soon be
apparent.
Regards  Dorothy
----- Original Message -----
From: "John R. Vaughn" <jrvaughn44@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2010 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
I concur with your sentiments. I have been using Jaws for over 
20 years
now
and it kept me employed, enjoying life and now enjoying
retirement.
FS and Jaws are not the be all and end all, but they have to have 
a
product
that works for folks.  If it is not working for you, move on.
Meanwhile,
this is a Jaws list to be a positive support to other jaws users. 
Lets
do
this or I will move on.
John in sunny florida
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
that's my understanding that eloquence is a history, but I am not 
freedom
scientific better check out with them. I did not mean to
crriticize the
other fellow just asking to be more thoughtful and careful with 
words.
It
seems to me that on this list there has become fashinable and
perhaps
rightly so to critisize jaws but noone suggests better product or 

am I
missing something?
Zdenek

----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar Carlson" <dgcarlson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! 



Zdenek,
I agree that the statement is almost meant to be inflammatory.
You wrote: "I believe that they are leaving eloquence instead of 
focusing
on
using the realspeak  voices..."


Just to clarify, did you mean that they are moving away from
Eloquence
and
will instead push to use RealSpeak voices?

I'd not be happy with using only RealSpeak for my day-to-day
work.

Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Zdenek Vopat" <zdenekvopat@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 07:48
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!
that's a pretty strong claim to make. In any rate I believe that 

they
are
leaving eloquence instead of focusing on using the realspeak
voices
that
you can download for free, so perhaps that may explain the
issue.
Zdenek

----- Original Message -----
From: "Devona" <djasister@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally! 



Did they fix it?

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Armond" <armond1980@xxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, August 06, 2010 8:19 AM
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Freedom Scientific introduces bugs intentionally!


Hi, all,
Many of you might find the following email exchange between a 
friend
of
mine and Freedom Scientific's Jonathan Mosen shocking or,
rather,
frustrating. Basically, it describes a Unicode-related bug in 
newer
releases of JAWS 11 which later turned out to be an
intentional move
on
the point of Freedom Scientific to get users to purchase a
certain
right-to-left language pack from a dealer--at a higher
cost--though
this
is against the spirit of the Unicode feature. Here's my
friend's
message--note that he himself doesn't have a blog or venue to 
voice
his
concerns and isn't interested in pursuing that line of action 
either
for
various reasons, so I'm doing that on his behalf and on the 
behalf of
those who have been affected:
------------
Hello Jonathan,
Please forgive me for sending you this message. The following 
bug is
so
serious that I decided to notify you as I don't know to which FreedomScientific employee it should be sent. This affects the 

latest
JAWS
11 update.
As you know, each unicode symbol or character has a value in 
hex. For
instance, the Persian or Arabic character "?" ("Alef") has the 
following
value: U+627.
Now JAWS 11 interprets hex values in the form of the correct 
value
minus
1. That is, for instance, the letter "Alef" with the value of 
U+627
is
read is "Yaa hamzeh" which has the hex value of U+626. That's 
quite
strange, but the bug indeed affects all unicode symbols
modified in
Eloq.sbl! This means that I can't use the Eloquence engine to 
type or
read
characters in Persian and Arabic because what I type or
whatever the
cursor points to will be read as something else by JAWS
11.0.1447.
Would you please inform JAWS developers about this bug? I
don't want
to
downgrade to the previous JAWS 11 release.
All the best,
Amir
------------
My friend's second message:
------------
Just as a follow-up to my previous message, this bug affects 
the
behavior
of NumPad5 in a slightly different way. That is, if NumPad5 is 
pressed
once on a Unicode character which has a certain value in
Eloq.sbl,
JAWS
incorrectly reports that character in the form of the actual 
Unicode
value
minus 1. However, if NumPad5 is pressed twice on a Unicode
character
for
its phonetic representation, JAWS incorrectly reads it in the 
form of
the
actual Unicode value plus 1. Just thought I'd pass this
finding, too.
Best,
Amir
------------
Jonathan's reply:
------------
Hi Amir, the issue you've advised me of is actually a design 
change
in
JAWS. If you could please let me know your serial number,
we'll look
at
your situation further and see if there's anything we can do 
for you.
Jonathan
------------
My friend's reply:
------------
Hi Jonathan,
That's a bit strange because the JAWS online help still
indicates
that
Unicode symbols can be added for engines like Eloquence which 
support
it.
Eloq.sbl is mentioned, too. At any rate, am I correct in
assuming
that
in
the future it would be impossible to use Eloquence to read and 

type
modified Unicode symbols and get correct feedback? May I ask 
why this
decision has been made?
As I live in a country which is now under various sanctions, I 

can't
use
credit cards or PayPal to pay for any app including JAWS, so I 

have
to
use
it in demo mode. The only exception to this is, as you know, 
use apps
I
test. On the other hand, I heavily depend on JAWS for reading 
and
writing
Persian letter by letter, using my modified Eloq.sbl file in 
combination
with Eloquence, because Persian doesn't have a TTS engine.
Would it be possible to kindly make changes to the status quo? 
Best,
Amir
------------
Jonathan's reply:
------------
Hi Amir, JAWS now requires a language processor to work with 
Arabic
and
Hebrew correctly.
This can be sourced from our Arabic distributor Medialog -
http://www.medialog.ws
Hope this helps.
Jonathan
------------
My friend's final reply:
------------
Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for the note regarding the Arabic distributor of
FreedomScientific
products. However, following the URL which you  provided
results in
the
display of a webpage with an error message, regardless of the 
browser
used, indicating that the page cannot be displayed. Do you
happen to
have
a download link for that language processor? As I badly need 
the
processor, your help would be greatly appreciated.
For your information, I'm pasting the error message which is 
apparently
in
both French and English below.
Medialog Accessibilities
404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame
Erreur de serveur
404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable.
La ressource que vous recherchez a peut-être été supprimée, 
renommée
ou
est temporairement indisponible.
404 - Fichier ou répertoire introuvable. frame end
The page cannot be found frame
The page cannot be found
The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its 
name
changed, or is temporarily unavailable.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please try the following:
. Make sure that the Web site address displayed in the address 

bar of
your
browser is spelled and formatted correctly.
. If you reached this page by clicking a link, contact the Web 

site
administrator to alert them that the link is incorrectly
formatted.
. Click the Back button to try another link.
HTTP Error 404 - File or directory not found.
Internet Information Services  (IIS)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Technical Information (for support personnel)
. Go to Microsoft Product Support Services and perform a title 

search
for
the words HTTP and 404.
. Open IIS Help, which is accessible in IIS Manager (inetmgr), 

and
search
for topics titled Web Site Setup, Common Administrative Tasks, 

and
About
Custom Error Messages.
The page cannot be found frame end
Best,
Amir
------------
Now, do you think this intentionally-introduced bug, which
affects
certain
right-to-left languages, shouldn't be addressed in JAWS 12? 
Interestingly,
even the first iterations of JAWS 11 didn't exhibit this bug, 
but its
later releases do. I sincerely hope Freedom Scientific address 

that
more
responsibly without thinking about the extra copies it might 
sell to
those
who do not even need an Arabic or Hebrew TTS engine to read 
individual
right-to-left languages. This is like getting Windows users in 
certain
countries to purchase localized releases of Windows just to be 

able
to
read and write in their own native languages.
BTW, if you can remember, my friend Amir has been behind the 
Symbian-oriented MobileSpace blog and also participates in
beta
testing
certain accessibility-related products for the visually
impaired.
Best regards,
Armond
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
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JFW related links:
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Scripting mailing list: http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com 
JFW List instructions:
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If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

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JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
Scripting mailing list: http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com 
JFW List instructions:
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx 


--
JFW related links:
JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/
Scripting mailing list: 
http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com
JFW List instructions:
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
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