I have read messages about this topic for the last few days. I would like to say a couple of things. First off, I like JFW, and FS software in general. I appreciate what they have done for me, because as a result of their software, I've been able to hold down meaningful employment for most of my adult life. Having said all of that, I will say that the price for any assistive technology, whether it be Fs software, braille printers, or anything that blind people use is priced way too high. For example, my Enabling printer cost 2,495.00. I could go to the nearest electronic or office supply store, and buy a printer for 150 dollars. I think blind people in general are being gouged, because the companies that make this stuff know they can get the money, either from individuals or through Vocational Rehabilitation services in state's like where I live. I really wish organizations like the American and National Federation for the Blind would address these issues. To me this is more important than anything else out there. So to summarize, I'm not whining, I'm just stating what I believe to be the fact. It is my hope that FS executives will consider lowering the prices of their products to make them more affordable for those of us who use their software every day, and who pay for the right to use it. I think that doing so would expand their customer base, and inturn, make them more profitable in the long run. I will not comment any further on this thread, but I feel that we as jaws users should have the ability to voice our concerns here, because maybe FS staff members can read it, and take our concerns into consideration when making future decisions. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" <tim@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Shall we Just Keep Moaning?
We shall keep moaning until Freedom Scientific makes changes. Tim----- Original Message ----- From: "dennis" <dennis.cornelison@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 8:37 AM Subject: Re: Shall we Just Keep Moaning?ditto ron.----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Byrne" <k9jau@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: Re: Shall we Just Keep Moaning?Well said Ron. Pat ByrneAt 05:05 PM 12/21/2010, you wrote:Merry Christmas! I am relatively new to the group, although I have been here before.I have been fascinated by all the comments concerning Chris's reasons forleaving and the discussions that followed. Freedom Scientific (FS) are a business and ultimately just want to make money. Who can blame them for that? The latest upgrades to Jaws have been very minimal and that issue needs addressing. Perhaps we need to see what other companies charge for software upgrades and evaluate if they are any better in quality than ours? Whether we own one computer or 20 is irrelevant. Accessibility must forme be the issue. Surely how fortunate one is or isn't should not come into it. As a business they must try to market their product and as consumers we can choose to ignore them. The point I want to raise is this. If Microsoft, Apple, the Mac and so on are willing to embrace speech software, should we not be glad of that? After all they have far more money than FS, so with our help, they can improve awareness of our difficulties and user accessibility. It is a great list and if enough people feel that FS are no longer fulfilling their promise to us we should arrange some kind of petition/letter/discussion or whatever to alert them to our concerns. Interested to see what you all think. Cheers. Ron -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robin Clayden Sent: 21 December 2010 19:49 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Hi, I have been one of the fortunate ones who has had Jaws paid for by my employers since I first got it through the Access to Work scheme around the mid nineties, think I started with version 3.0. They also allowed meto install it on my home pc as I did stuff from home occasionally throughaccessing the work server remotely. They paid my SMA there in July, knowing I was taking an early retirement option at Christmas and have now agreed to pass ownership and responsibility of future SMA's to me - they've been brilliant. However, had I been a private individual and paying all my JFW upgradesand SMA's etc, I really don't think I would be on this list at this time, I think I would have been looking hard at cheaper and fairer products andrelated T's and C's. I found the Microsoft comment very interesting earlier, should they takeup the possibilities of including optional screen reading capabilities in their next phase of operating systems, or even looking at what Google aredoing now, almost challenging Microsoft with a rival platform..... maybein a couple of years when my JFW expenses come home to roost with me.....all this debate could be irrelevant?One observation I'd like to throw out, and I am no expert, is that in the last five years or so, I really felt that the enhancements to JFW have notjustified the hipe in price or the utilisation of an upgrade from your SMA.Perhaps an SMA should have a time factor instead of a version factor wouldbe more realistic. Purchase an SMA and it lasts for 5 years, or purchasethe product with a lifetime upgrade policy..... think I might need to putmy tin hat on now! Version 5.1 was a great stable build, 7.1 also, but since then, I really don't feel that the newer versions released had any really significant improvements to it's predecessor to warrant the cost of the improvement Sorry for the long rant, Seasons Greetings to all by the way. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Sears" <r.sears1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:01 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS>I quite agree, I have been using System Access for many years in fact >I>bought > the whole package so I pay each year. You don't have to pay for > updates > and it> is so easy to use. I don't like the voices in NVDA but I must admit > I> haven't> tried it yet. JFW 10 will suit me so I won't be upgrading it any > more.> I > daresay that most Jaws users are having it paid by their companies in > the > work > place and mostly in the States. > > Cheers > > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Misch" <bmisch2002@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:57 PM > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS > >> actually system access does what you need buy it once and never pay > for> sma's > ever again and it uses pretty much all of the jaws keys since the > layout > is > based on jaws. > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Kevin Morris wrote: > >> I've been using Jaws for about 14 years now and find it very good. >> Having said that, I'm familiar with it and it may well be that if I >> tried NVDA or other similar software I'd be converted. >>>> It does appear that Jaws is overpriced (it would be great if you >> just >> paid, once for it and you got all subsequent upgrades free without >> the>> need for SMAs etc). >>>> I'm not going to ditch it yet but would certainly welcome an >> expansion >> of choice and, as Graham mentions the incorporation of screen >> reading>> software into all PCs would be a very welcome development. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 21/12/2010, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:>>> JAWS for Windows is becoming an increasingly large download and I >>> do>>> find>>> myself wondering if it is not time that JAWS had a rewrite, >>> dropping>>> more of >>> the legacy support. It is wholly reasonable for example for JAWS >>> not >>> to>>> support anything older than Windows XP which has now been around >>> for>>> over 9 >>> years. As many people have said though, there is now little if any >>> justification for the differences between JAWS standard and JAWS >>> Professional and JAWS Pro should in my opinion be dropped and JAWS >>> should be >>> sold at the same price as the standard virsion, working with all >>> operating >>> systems. In the longer term however, the PC should go the same way >>> as >>> the>>> Mac with a screenreader included as standard that really works. >>> Only>>> when>>> we reach this stage can we even begin to talk about equal access >>> to>>> computers. Some vendors and manufacturers would go out of business >>> but >>> that is just tough luck. This may be eutopia rather than a >>> realistic>>> possibility but lets just say that if Microsoft were to purchase >>> one>>> of >>> the >>> existing screenreaders and employ an appropriate amount of >>> development >>> staff >>> so the screenreader could be shipped with windows it would make >>> things >>> very >>> interesting indeed. JAWS would be an obvious target as it probably >>> still >>> has the largest user base. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Graham >>> >>> Graham Page >>> Mobile: 07753 607980 >>> Fax: 0870 706 2773 >>> Email: gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> MSN: gabriel_mcbird@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: gabriel_mcbird >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On >>> Behalf Of chris hallsworth >>> Sent: 21 December 2010 12:19 >>> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [jaws-uk] Why I am not going to use JAWS >>> >>> Hello all. >>> I will publicly state why I am refusing to use JAWS. It is Freedom>>> Scientific's attitude towards pricing and their license schemes. >>> Some>>> of >>> us can't or won't afford to buy JAWS, especially if the free one is >>> just >>> as good as JAWS. As for the license scheme, the user is punished to >>> license JAWS on up to three machines. With the free and even other >>> commercial screen readers one can install on as many computers as >>> they >>> have so long as one machine is used at a time, no questions asked. >>> With >>> JAWS, once all three authorizations have been used they would then >>> have >>> to request FS for more keys. Eventually and I will say eventually >>> they>>> will refuse flat and get paranoid about people sharing >>> authorization>>> keys. I understand piracy and all that and I certainly don't commit >>> to >>> any of that stuff however at the same time FS is just asking for >>> money>>> and not caring about the customer. True there is a dongle option, >>> but>>> even they can have their fair share of problems. Now for the >>> technical,>>> I do find the free one to be actually more stable and even works >>> with>>> more applications than JAWS. You may find this shocking but this is >>> true >>> according to my personal experience.>>> On a positive note, I would like to publicly thank the guys at >>> Sight>>> and >>> Sound. They have been really helpful in answering my JAWS queries, >>> even>>> though the suggestions may not be what I was looking for. It's >>> better>>> to >>> have good communication rather than nothing at all. So thanks, and >>> keep >>> up the great works. >>> Take care. >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Hallsworth >>> You can contact me at the following channels: >>> E-mail and Facebook: challsworth2@xxxxxxx >>> MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: chrishallsworth7266 >>> Twitter: <http://twitter.com/christopherh40>http://twitter.com/christopherh40 >>> >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe> est@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribemailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faqmailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe Merry Christmas! I am relatively new to the group, although I have been here before.I have been fascinated by all the comments concerning Chris's reasons forleaving and the discussions that followed. Freedom Scientific (FS) are a business and ultimately just want to make money. Who can blame them for that? The latest upgrades to Jaws have been very minimal and that issue needs addressing. Perhaps we need to see what other companies charge for software upgrades and evaluate if they are any better in quality than ours? Whether we own one computer or 20 is irrelevant. Accessibility must forme be the issue. Surely how fortunate one is or isn't should not come into it. As a business they should try to sell their product and as consumers we can choose to ignore them. The point I want to raise is this. If Microsoft, Apple, the Mac and so on are willing to embrace speech software, should we not be glad of that? After all they have far more money than FS, so with our help, they can improve user accessibility. It is a great list and if enough people feel that FS are no longer fulfilling their promise to us we should arrange some kind of petition/letter/discussion or whatever. Interested to see what you all think. Cheers. Ron From: "Ron Edwards" <facup1927@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:43:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0066_01CBA163.A1834500" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 In-Reply-To: <AEF55087020849B88B62BC65963849C4@secretary> Thread-Index: AcuhSCrrCsS2/qUURBWR0qbkS/z99QAEx58g Merry Christmas! I am relatively new to the group, although I have been here before.I have been fascinated by all the comments concerning Chris's reasons forleaving and the discussions that followed. Freedom Scientific (FS) are a business and ultimately just want to make money. Who can blame them for that? The latest upgrades to Jaws have been very minimal and that issue needs addressing. Perhaps we need to see what other companies charge for software upgrades and evaluate if they are any better in quality than ours? Whether we own one computer or 20 is irrelevant. Accessibility must forme be the issue. Surely how fortunate one is or isn't should not come into it. As a business they should try to sell their product and as consumers we can choose to ignore them. The point I want to raise is this. If Microsoft, Apple, the Mac and so on are willing to embrace speech software, should we not be glad of that? After all they have far more money than FS, so with our help, they can improve user accessibility. It is a great list and if enough people feel that FS are no longer fulfilling their promise to us we should arrange some kind of petition/letter/discussion or whatever. Interested to see what you all think. Cheers. Ron -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robin Clayden Sent: 21 December 2010 19:49 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Hi, I have been one of the fortunate ones who has had Jaws paid for by my employers since I first got it through the Access to Work scheme around the mid nineties, think I started with version 3.0. They also allowed me to install it on my home pc as I did stuff from home occasionally through accessing the work server remotely. They paid my SMA there in July, knowing I was taking an early retirement option at Christmas and have now agreed to pass ownership and responsibility of future SMA's to me - they've been brilliant. However, had I been a private individual and paying all my JFW upgrades and SMA's etc, I really don't think I would be on this list at this time, I think I would have been looking hard at cheaper and fairer products and related T's and C's. I found the Microsoft comment very interesting earlier, should they take up the possibilities of including optional screen reading capabilities in theirnext phase of operating systems, or even looking at what Google are doingnow, almost challenging Microsoft with a rival platform..... maybe in a couple of years when my JFW expenses come home to roost with me..... all this debate could be irrelevant?One observation I'd like to throw out, and I am no expert, is that in the last five years or so, I really felt that the enhancements to JFW have notjustified the hipe in price or the utilisation of an upgrade from your SMA.Perhaps an SMA should have a time factor instead of a version factor wouldbe more realistic. Purchase an SMA and it lasts for 5 years, or purchase the product with a lifetime upgrade policy..... think I might need to put my tin hat on now! Version 5.1 was a great stable build, 7.1 also, but since then, I really don't feel that the newer versions released had any really significant improvements to it's predecessor to warrant the cost of the improvement Sorry for the long rant, Seasons Greetings to all by the way. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Sears" <r.sears1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:01 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS>I quite agree, I have been using System Access for many years in fact >I>bought > the whole package so I pay each year. You don't have to pay for > updates > and it> is so easy to use. I don't like the voices in NVDA but I must admit > I> haven't> tried it yet. JFW 10 will suit me so I won't be upgrading it any > more.> I > daresay that most Jaws users are having it paid by their companies in > the > work > place and mostly in the States. > > Cheers > > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Misch" <bmisch2002@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:57 PM > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS > >> actually system access does what you need buy it once and never pay > for> sma's > ever again and it uses pretty much all of the jaws keys since the > layout > is > based on jaws. > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Kevin Morris wrote: > >> I've been using Jaws for about 14 years now and find it very good. >> Having said that, I'm familiar with it and it may well be that if I >> tried NVDA or other similar software I'd be converted. >>>> It does appear that Jaws is overpriced (it would be great if you >> just >> paid, once for it and you got all subsequent upgrades free without >> the>> need for SMAs etc). >>>> I'm not going to ditch it yet but would certainly welcome an >> expansion >> of choice and, as Graham mentions the incorporation of screen >> reading>> software into all PCs would be a very welcome development. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 21/12/2010, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:>>> JAWS for Windows is becoming an increasingly large download and I >>> do>>> find>>> myself wondering if it is not time that JAWS had a rewrite, >>> dropping>>> more of >>> the legacy support. It is wholly reasonable for example for JAWS >>> not >>> to>>> support anything older than Windows XP which has now been around >>> for>>> over 9 >>> years. As many people have said though, there is now little if any >>> justification for the differences between JAWS standard and JAWS >>> Professional and JAWS Pro should in my opinion be dropped and JAWS >>> should be >>> sold at the same price as the standard virsion, working with all >>> operating >>> systems. In the longer term however, the PC should go the same way >>> as >>> the>>> Mac with a screenreader included as standard that really works. >>> Only>>> when>>> we reach this stage can we even begin to talk about equal access >>> to>>> computers. Some vendors and manufacturers would go out of business >>> but >>> that is just tough luck. This may be eutopia rather than a >>> realistic>>> possibility but lets just say that if Microsoft were to purchase >>> one>>> of >>> the >>> existing screenreaders and employ an appropriate amount of >>> development >>> staff >>> so the screenreader could be shipped with windows it would make >>> things >>> very >>> interesting indeed. JAWS would be an obvious target as it probably >>> still >>> has the largest user base. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Graham >>> >>> Graham Page >>> Mobile: 07753 607980 >>> Fax: 0870 706 2773 >>> Email: gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> MSN: gabriel_mcbird@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: gabriel_mcbird >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On >>> Behalf Of chris hallsworth >>> Sent: 21 December 2010 12:19 >>> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [jaws-uk] Why I am not going to use JAWS >>> >>> Hello all. >>> I will publicly state why I am refusing to use JAWS. It is Freedom>>> Scientific's attitude towards pricing and their license schemes. >>> Some>>> of >>> us can't or won't afford to buy JAWS, especially if the free one is >>> just >>> as good as JAWS. As for the license scheme, the user is punished to >>> license JAWS on up to three machines. With the free and even other >>> commercial screen readers one can install on as many computers as >>> they >>> have so long as one machine is used at a time, no questions asked. >>> With >>> JAWS, once all three authorizations have been used they would then >>> have >>> to request FS for more keys. Eventually and I will say eventually >>> they>>> will refuse flat and get paranoid about people sharing >>> authorization>>> keys. I understand piracy and all that and I certainly don't commit >>> to >>> any of that stuff however at the same time FS is just asking for >>> money>>> and not caring about the customer. True there is a dongle option, >>> but>>> even they can have their fair share of problems. Now for the >>> technical,>>> I do find the free one to be actually more stable and even works >>> with>>> more applications than JAWS. You may find this shocking but this is >>> true >>> according to my personal experience.>>> On a positive note, I would like to publicly thank the guys at >>> Sight>>> and >>> Sound. They have been really helpful in answering my JAWS queries, >>> even>>> though the suggestions may not be what I was looking for. It's >>> better>>> to >>> have good communication rather than nothing at all. So thanks, and >>> keep >>> up the great works. >>> Take care. >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Hallsworth >>> You can contact me at the following channels: >>> E-mail and Facebook: challsworth2@xxxxxxx >>> MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: chrishallsworth7266 >>> Twitter: <http://twitter.com/christopherh40>http://twitter.com/christopherh40 >>> >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ** and in the Subject line type >> ** unsubscribe >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >> ** immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >> ** or send a message, to >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >> > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq From: "Ron Edwards" <facup1927@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:43:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006A_01CBA163.A1865240" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 In-Reply-To: <AEF55087020849B88B62BC65963849C4@secretary> Thread-Index: AcuhSCrrCsS2/qUURBWR0qbkS/z99QAEx58g Merry Christmas! I am relatively new to the group, although I have been here before.I have been fascinated by all the comments concerning Chris's reasons forleaving and the discussions that followed. Freedom Scientific (FS) are a business and ultimately just want to make money. Who can blame them for that? The latest upgrades to Jaws have been very minimal and that issue needs addressing. Perhaps we need to see what other companies charge for software upgrades and evaluate if they are any better in quality than ours? Whether we own one computer or 20 is irrelevant. Accessibility must forme be the issue. Surely how fortunate one is or isn't should not come into it. As a business they should try to sell their product and as consumers we can choose to ignore them. The point I want to raise is this. If Microsoft, Apple, the Mac and so on are willing to embrace speech software, should we not be glad of that? After all they have far more money than FS, so with our help, they can improve user accessibility. It is a great list and if enough people feel that FS are no longer fulfilling their promise to us we should arrange some kind of petition/letter/discussion or whatever. Interested to see what you all think. Cheers. Ron -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robin Clayden Sent: 21 December 2010 19:49 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Hi, I have been one of the fortunate ones who has had Jaws paid for by my employers since I first got it through the Access to Work scheme around the mid nineties, think I started with version 3.0. They also allowed me to install it on my home pc as I did stuff from home occasionally through accessing the work server remotely. They paid my SMA there in July, knowing I was taking an early retirement option at Christmas and have now agreed to pass ownership and responsibility of future SMA's to me - they've been brilliant. However, had I been a private individual and paying all my JFW upgrades and SMA's etc, I really don't think I would be on this list at this time, I think I would have been looking hard at cheaper and fairer products and related T's and C's. I found the Microsoft comment very interesting earlier, should they take up the possibilities of including optional screen reading capabilities in theirnext phase of operating systems, or even looking at what Google are doingnow, almost challenging Microsoft with a rival platform..... maybe in a couple of years when my JFW expenses come home to roost with me..... all this debate could be irrelevant?One observation I'd like to throw out, and I am no expert, is that in the last five years or so, I really felt that the enhancements to JFW have notjustified the hipe in price or the utilisation of an upgrade from your SMA.Perhaps an SMA should have a time factor instead of a version factor wouldbe more realistic. Purchase an SMA and it lasts for 5 years, or purchase the product with a lifetime upgrade policy..... think I might need to put my tin hat on now! Version 5.1 was a great stable build, 7.1 also, but since then, I really don't feel that the newer versions released had any really significant improvements to it's predecessor to warrant the cost of the improvement Sorry for the long rant, Seasons Greetings to all by the way. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Sears" <r.sears1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:01 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS>I quite agree, I have been using System Access for many years in fact >I>bought > the whole package so I pay each year. You don't have to pay for > updates > and it> is so easy to use. I don't like the voices in NVDA but I must admit > I> haven't> tried it yet. JFW 10 will suit me so I won't be upgrading it any > more.> I > daresay that most Jaws users are having it paid by their companies in > the > work > place and mostly in the States. > > Cheers > > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Misch" <bmisch2002@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:57 PM > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS > >> actually system access does what you need buy it once and never pay > for> sma's > ever again and it uses pretty much all of the jaws keys since the > layout > is > based on jaws. > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Kevin Morris wrote: > >> I've been using Jaws for about 14 years now and find it very good. >> Having said that, I'm familiar with it and it may well be that if I >> tried NVDA or other similar software I'd be converted. >>>> It does appear that Jaws is overpriced (it would be great if you >> just >> paid, once for it and you got all subsequent upgrades free without >> the>> need for SMAs etc). >>>> I'm not going to ditch it yet but would certainly welcome an >> expansion >> of choice and, as Graham mentions the incorporation of screen >> reading>> software into all PCs would be a very welcome development. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 21/12/2010, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:>>> JAWS for Windows is becoming an increasingly large download and I >>> do>>> find>>> myself wondering if it is not time that JAWS had a rewrite, >>> dropping>>> more of >>> the legacy support. It is wholly reasonable for example for JAWS >>> not >>> to>>> support anything older than Windows XP which has now been around >>> for>>> over 9 >>> years. As many people have said though, there is now little if any >>> justification for the differences between JAWS standard and JAWS >>> Professional and JAWS Pro should in my opinion be dropped and JAWS >>> should be >>> sold at the same price as the standard virsion, working with all >>> operating >>> systems. In the longer term however, the PC should go the same way >>> as >>> the>>> Mac with a screenreader included as standard that really works. >>> Only>>> when>>> we reach this stage can we even begin to talk about equal access >>> to>>> computers. Some vendors and manufacturers would go out of business >>> but >>> that is just tough luck. This may be eutopia rather than a >>> realistic>>> possibility but lets just say that if Microsoft were to purchase >>> one>>> of >>> the >>> existing screenreaders and employ an appropriate amount of >>> development >>> staff >>> so the screenreader could be shipped with windows it would make >>> things >>> very >>> interesting indeed. JAWS would be an obvious target as it probably >>> still >>> has the largest user base. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Graham >>> >>> Graham Page >>> Mobile: 07753 607980 >>> Fax: 0870 706 2773 >>> Email: gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> MSN: gabriel_mcbird@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: gabriel_mcbird >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On >>> Behalf Of chris hallsworth >>> Sent: 21 December 2010 12:19 >>> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [jaws-uk] Why I am not going to use JAWS >>> >>> Hello all. >>> I will publicly state why I am refusing to use JAWS. It is Freedom>>> Scientific's attitude towards pricing and their license schemes. >>> Some>>> of >>> us can't or won't afford to buy JAWS, especially if the free one is >>> just >>> as good as JAWS. As for the license scheme, the user is punished to >>> license JAWS on up to three machines. With the free and even other >>> commercial screen readers one can install on as many computers as >>> they >>> have so long as one machine is used at a time, no questions asked. >>> With >>> JAWS, once all three authorizations have been used they would then >>> have >>> to request FS for more keys. Eventually and I will say eventually >>> they>>> will refuse flat and get paranoid about people sharing >>> authorization>>> keys. I understand piracy and all that and I certainly don't commit >>> to >>> any of that stuff however at the same time FS is just asking for >>> money>>> and not caring about the customer. True there is a dongle option, >>> but>>> even they can have their fair share of problems. Now for the >>> technical,>>> I do find the free one to be actually more stable and even works >>> with>>> more applications than JAWS. You may find this shocking but this is >>> true >>> according to my personal experience.>>> On a positive note, I would like to publicly thank the guys at >>> Sight>>> and >>> Sound. They have been really helpful in answering my JAWS queries, >>> even>>> though the suggestions may not be what I was looking for. It's >>> better>>> to >>> have good communication rather than nothing at all. So thanks, and >>> keep >>> up the great works. >>> Take care. >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Hallsworth >>> You can contact me at the following channels: >>> E-mail and Facebook: challsworth2@xxxxxxx >>> MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: chrishallsworth7266 >>> Twitter: <http://twitter.com/christopherh40>http://twitter.com/christopherh40 >>> >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ** and in the Subject line type >> ** unsubscribe >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >> ** immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >> ** or send a message, to >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >> > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq From: "Ron Edwards" <facup1927@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: RE: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:43:53 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_006E_01CBA163.A187D8E0" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 In-Reply-To: <AEF55087020849B88B62BC65963849C4@secretary> Thread-Index: AcuhSCrrCsS2/qUURBWR0qbkS/z99QAEx58g Merry Christmas! I am relatively new to the group, although I have been here before.I have been fascinated by all the comments concerning Chris's reasons forleaving and the discussions that followed. Freedom Scientific (FS) are a business and ultimately just want to make money. Who can blame them for that? The latest upgrades to Jaws have been very minimal and that issue needs addressing. Perhaps we need to see what other companies charge for software upgrades and evaluate if they are any better in quality than ours? Whether we own one computer or 20 is irrelevant. Accessibility must forme be the issue. Surely how fortunate one is or isn't should not come into it. As a business they should try to sell their product and as consumers we can choose to ignore them. The point I want to raise is this. If Microsoft, Apple, the Mac and so on are willing to embrace speech software, should we not be glad of that? After all they have far more money than FS, so with our help, they can improve user accessibility. It is a great list and if enough people feel that FS are no longer fulfilling their promise to us we should arrange some kind of petition/letter/discussion or whatever. Interested to see what you all think. Cheers. Ron -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Robin Clayden Sent: 21 December 2010 19:49 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS Hi, I have been one of the fortunate ones who has had Jaws paid for by my employers since I first got it through the Access to Work scheme around the mid nineties, think I started with version 3.0. They also allowed me to install it on my home pc as I did stuff from home occasionally through accessing the work server remotely. They paid my SMA there in July, knowing I was taking an early retirement option at Christmas and have now agreed to pass ownership and responsibility of future SMA's to me - they've been brilliant. However, had I been a private individual and paying all my JFW upgrades and SMA's etc, I really don't think I would be on this list at this time, I think I would have been looking hard at cheaper and fairer products and related T's and C's. I found the Microsoft comment very interesting earlier, should they take up the possibilities of including optional screen reading capabilities in theirnext phase of operating systems, or even looking at what Google are doingnow, almost challenging Microsoft with a rival platform..... maybe in a couple of years when my JFW expenses come home to roost with me..... all this debate could be irrelevant?One observation I'd like to throw out, and I am no expert, is that in the last five years or so, I really felt that the enhancements to JFW have notjustified the hipe in price or the utilisation of an upgrade from your SMA.Perhaps an SMA should have a time factor instead of a version factor wouldbe more realistic. Purchase an SMA and it lasts for 5 years, or purchase the product with a lifetime upgrade policy..... think I might need to put my tin hat on now! Version 5.1 was a great stable build, 7.1 also, but since then, I really don't feel that the newer versions released had any really significant improvements to it's predecessor to warrant the cost of the improvement Sorry for the long rant, Seasons Greetings to all by the way. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Sears" <r.sears1@xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 7:01 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS>I quite agree, I have been using System Access for many years in fact >I>bought > the whole package so I pay each year. You don't have to pay for > updates > and it> is so easy to use. I don't like the voices in NVDA but I must admit > I> haven't> tried it yet. JFW 10 will suit me so I won't be upgrading it any > more.> I > daresay that most Jaws users are having it paid by their companies in > the > work > place and mostly in the States. > > Cheers > > Ron > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brandon Misch" <bmisch2002@xxxxxxxxx> > To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 5:57 PM > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Why I am not going to use JAWS > >> actually system access does what you need buy it once and never pay > for> sma's > ever again and it uses pretty much all of the jaws keys since the > layout > is > based on jaws. > > On Dec 21, 2010, at 11:28 AM, Kevin Morris wrote: > >> I've been using Jaws for about 14 years now and find it very good. >> Having said that, I'm familiar with it and it may well be that if I >> tried NVDA or other similar software I'd be converted. >>>> It does appear that Jaws is overpriced (it would be great if you >> just >> paid, once for it and you got all subsequent upgrades free without >> the>> need for SMAs etc). >>>> I'm not going to ditch it yet but would certainly welcome an >> expansion >> of choice and, as Graham mentions the incorporation of screen >> reading>> software into all PCs would be a very welcome development. >> >> Kevin >> >> On 21/12/2010, Graham Page <gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:>>> JAWS for Windows is becoming an increasingly large download and I >>> do>>> find>>> myself wondering if it is not time that JAWS had a rewrite, >>> dropping>>> more of >>> the legacy support. It is wholly reasonable for example for JAWS >>> not >>> to>>> support anything older than Windows XP which has now been around >>> for>>> over 9 >>> years. As many people have said though, there is now little if any >>> justification for the differences between JAWS standard and JAWS >>> Professional and JAWS Pro should in my opinion be dropped and JAWS >>> should be >>> sold at the same price as the standard virsion, working with all >>> operating >>> systems. In the longer term however, the PC should go the same way >>> as >>> the>>> Mac with a screenreader included as standard that really works. >>> Only>>> when>>> we reach this stage can we even begin to talk about equal access >>> to>>> computers. Some vendors and manufacturers would go out of business >>> but >>> that is just tough luck. This may be eutopia rather than a >>> realistic>>> possibility but lets just say that if Microsoft were to purchase >>> one>>> of >>> the >>> existing screenreaders and employ an appropriate amount of >>> development >>> staff >>> so the screenreader could be shipped with windows it would make >>> things >>> very >>> interesting indeed. JAWS would be an obvious target as it probably >>> still >>> has the largest user base. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Graham >>> >>> Graham Page >>> Mobile: 07753 607980 >>> Fax: 0870 706 2773 >>> Email: gpage@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> MSN: gabriel_mcbird@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: gabriel_mcbird >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [<mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >>> On >>> Behalf Of chris hallsworth >>> Sent: 21 December 2010 12:19 >>> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> Subject: [jaws-uk] Why I am not going to use JAWS >>> >>> Hello all. >>> I will publicly state why I am refusing to use JAWS. It is Freedom>>> Scientific's attitude towards pricing and their license schemes. >>> Some>>> of >>> us can't or won't afford to buy JAWS, especially if the free one is >>> just >>> as good as JAWS. As for the license scheme, the user is punished to >>> license JAWS on up to three machines. With the free and even other >>> commercial screen readers one can install on as many computers as >>> they >>> have so long as one machine is used at a time, no questions asked. >>> With >>> JAWS, once all three authorizations have been used they would then >>> have >>> to request FS for more keys. Eventually and I will say eventually >>> they>>> will refuse flat and get paranoid about people sharing >>> authorization>>> keys. I understand piracy and all that and I certainly don't commit >>> to >>> any of that stuff however at the same time FS is just asking for >>> money>>> and not caring about the customer. True there is a dongle option, >>> but>>> even they can have their fair share of problems. Now for the >>> technical,>>> I do find the free one to be actually more stable and even works >>> with>>> more applications than JAWS. You may find this shocking but this is >>> true >>> according to my personal experience.>>> On a positive note, I would like to publicly thank the guys at >>> Sight>>> and >>> Sound. They have been really helpful in answering my JAWS queries, >>> even>>> though the suggestions may not be what I was looking for. It's >>> better>>> to >>> have good communication rather than nothing at all. So thanks, and >>> keep >>> up the great works. >>> Take care. >>> -- >>> >>> Chris Hallsworth >>> You can contact me at the following channels: >>> E-mail and Facebook: challsworth2@xxxxxxx >>> MSN: ch9675@xxxxxxxxxxx >>> Skype: chrishallsworth7266 >>> Twitter: <http://twitter.com/christopherh40>http://twitter.com/christopherh40 >>> >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >>> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >>> ** and in the Subject line type >>> ** unsubscribe >>> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >>> ** immediately-following link:- >>> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >>> ** or send a message, to >>> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >>> >>> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ** and in the Subject line type >> ** unsubscribe >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >> ** immediately-following link:- >> ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >> ** or send a message, to >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >> > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [<mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq>mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq-- JFW related links: JFW homepage: http://www.freedomscientific.com/ Scripting mailing list: http://lists.the-jdh.com/listinfo.cgi/scriptography-the-jdh.com JFW List instructions: To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line. 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