Re: DOS and Windows
- From: "david poehlman" <david.poehlman@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:58:57 -0500
If windows is so easy to use, then why do we have so much trouble with jaws
and why are there thousands of courses on how to use windows and at least
one windows for dummies book?
Johnnie Apple Seed
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Pearson" <will-pearson@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 8:40 AM
Subject: Re: DOS and Windows
Hi Bill,
See comments embedded
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill" <bill.cam@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: <jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 9:06 AM
Subject: Re: DOS and Windows
>
<snip>
> first m s did not create or make the gui interface,
Yes. Xerox created it at PARC. However, Windows was the first GUI to be
used by the masses, and for general computing use. Sun had X-Windows, for
with Mynat and Edwards actually created a screen reader, but although it was
a good operating system it never really took off. Apple did introduce a GUI
before Windows, but Mac's have never really took off beyond those working in
the fields involving graphic design, where they're first choice over a PC.
<snip>
> o s 2 included a 32 bit text based interface as well as a gui.
>
> no reason both could not coe exist.
True, as they co-exist in Windows. Win 1.x, 2.x 3.x and 9x were basically a
graphical user interface for DOS. They had DOS as their primary O/S, but
provided new functionality through Windows components such as the registry,
ODBC, etc., as well as providing a graphical, metaphor based interface
through which a user interacted with the system.
Undoubtedly, you could have created text based equivalents to the registry,
ODBC, etc. but you couldn't have built the methaphor type environment
through text.
>
> in addition many task such as the ones you put forth such as copying files
> is much easier from a commandline interface.
For some users it is, for most users impirical evidence would suggest
otherwise. The metaphor of physically dragging files to a new location ties
in with the real world more, where objects move in physical space, rather
than just telling something to move. This makes the interface seem more
natural, less intimidating, easier to remember, and easier to learn without
reading any large manuals, for new users, especially those who are
unfamiliar with command sets.
<snip>
>
> lets say you want to copy only the bat files, or the txt files, or the doc
> files, in a folder with numerous other files, command line is much faster
> in those cases.
I'll concede this point. However, you have to remember the copy command and
the locations in order to invoke a copy, such as copy
c:\work\cpp\project1\*.cpp c:\releases\cpp\project1. The memory needed to
remember that may lead to inaccurate entry of the paths, as it often did
with users under DOS. If they were paths which were used a lot, the users
had little trouble in remember in them, but if they were paths that weren't
used that often, it became difficult to remember the entire path in an
accurate manner. This is largely due to the power law of learning, which
states you won't remember all material first time around. A GUI makes this
a little easier, as browsing becomes simpler.
> believe me most system administrators no this.
IMO sys admins aren't the important people. It's those who don't use
computers that often, don't have a great deal of technical knowledge, and
who only really use computers to perform tasks, not use computers just for
the fun of it.
>
> the real reason m s left out command line is because they wanted people to
> move to strickly gui apts because it benifitted them because they new the
o
> s and kept much info from competitors.
>
>
> so they could get the jump on their competition.
>
> one reason office is number one, m s had the inside scoop prior to word
> perfect.
Looking at the timeline. You had Word out first, but Lotus Ami Pro came out
prior to Wordperfect for Windows, which was v6.0. I think the only reason
Wordperfect actually brought out a Windows version was due to a change in
ownership. Novell, who had been making Windows based networking apps,
brought out Wordperfect and probably suggested to them to build versions for
Windows and the Mac, something MS had been doing for a while. So, whilst
it's true MS probably have better knowledge of their proown technology than
their competitors, I think the case of Word Perfect was probably due more to
corperate culture and complacency as market leaders for DOS word processors,
than any market advantage Windows gave Word.
>
> so the m s operating system is more a reflection of what micro soft wants
> more so than the consumer.
This may have been true a couple of years ago. However, nowdays Microsoft
seek active feedback from consumers, and actually review it and take action
on it. Starting with VS 2005, Microsoft have rolled out a public commenting
system where people using the product are free to make suggestions, raise
bugs, and see all the other bugs and suggestions that have been submitted.
You can even see Microsoft's responses and the current status of the bugs
from within the Product Feedback Centre. Having worked with the Visual
Studio product group on improving the accessibility of Visual Studio, for
about the past year, I know that they definately do listen to consumer
concerns, and do try to address these.
Obviously, each company is free to persue a business strategy, but
Microsoft's is now becoming more user focused. They've always been focused
in delivering good user interfaces to users, and have about 30 human
computer labs to try to ensure their interfaces are the best they can be,
although they haven't really engaged the user beyond this until recently.
<snip>
>
> one only need see that linux is on the rise due in part to microsoft lack
> of respect for what corporate clients want.
> security and command line.
Security is being addressed by Microsoft, and this will become apparent in
Longhron. I think command line interfaces are appropriate for some
commercial tasks, such as system administration, but for daily use by say a
secretary, office clerk, manager, etc. all of whom will probably place more
importance on getting the task done easily than having to remember lots of
commands, switches, etc., a GUI gives this ability to simplify tasks and
perform them in an intuitive manner.
<snip>
> now to tie this to jfw, well guess what m s did in win 95, they left out
an
> off screen model and access to the o s and applications through such an
off
> screen model.
>
>
> one might assume they had no knowledge of the off screen model or its
> benefits, except for one thing, they help write o s 2 which did have such
a
> feature.
I don't know of any contemperery operating systems that do provide an off
screen model. As you seem to be a fan of *nix, you may be interested to
find out that Gnopernicus works with Gnome through an accessibility API,
which is a similar system to MSAA, although more controls get the
accessibility information for free under Gnome. Longhorn won't have an OSM,
instead opting to replace MSAA with the more powerful and much better
UIAutomation classes, making it possible to write a screen reader without
the need for an OSM. If we follow you apparent dislike for Microsoft, I
would have assumed you would have prefered Microsoft not to produce an OSM.
If they had, the AT vendors would have been tied to Microsoft's
implementation of an OSM, and if we follow your school of thought, that
would have only given us access to Microsoft apps. However, Microsoft did
allow for hooking of Windows messaging, which makes building an OSM not too
much of a difficult process.
<snip>
> one last point m s has no requirements that one follow standard gui look
> and feel.
True. Whilst there are no requirements, there is convention. This
convention is actually formally documented in Microsoft's advice on GUI
design that is found on MSDN.
<snip>
> one last point, many features in wndows are much harder than dos.
>
>
> to copy a program in dos one only need copy the folder.
>
> try that in windows and see if it works.
I'll leave trying that in Windows. Copying any programs is actually an
illegal act, breaches laws, and places anyone doing it subject to many
thousands of dollars in fines, possibly jail. I don't want to risk this, so
I'm not going to be copying copyrighted material.
Will Pearson
Microsoft MVP (Visual Developer/VC++)
For more information on teh MVP Program, go to:
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--
To post a message to the list, send it to jfw@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send a message to
jfw-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the word unsubscribe in the subject line.
Archives located at: //www.freelists.org/archives/jfw
If you have any concerns about the list, post received from the list, or the
way the list is being run, do not post them to the list. Rather contact the
list owner at jfw-admins@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Other related posts:
