[jawsscripts] Re: Jaws versus We thoughts, was silence in between Saying two messages
- From: Jamal Mazrui <empower@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:00:49 -0400 (EDT)
I agree that HJ/FS made the right decision originally to support
scripting, since there are limits to what can be done to make a
challenging application accessible via menu-driven configuration options.
When GW does decide to do something, I think it tends to be done in a
quality manner, and this is true of its approach to scripting. In my
opinion, the following are some advantages of WinEyes over JAWS scripting
at present:
* An object oriented rather than purely procedural API
* Support for almost any language that supports COM automation, whether
interpreted or compiled
* Many more Windows and screen reader related events that a script can
hook into
* The ability to have any number of global or application scripts that
work independently (not one default and one application set at a time)
* The ability to define almost any custom dialog in an easy to use XML
language that works in combinition with a script
* Easier access to MSAA related information
* A security model by which scripts can be signed and only trusted
scripts can be run
* A central script repository with support for developers to upload
scripts and users to browse, download, and rate them
* an official scripting support list, where company representatives
answer questions if they are not answered adequately by others
In my opinion, the VBScript language used by default in WinEyes
documentation and examples is superior to JAWS script in several ways
including the following:
* Data types include not just string, integer, and object, but date, real
number, and arrays
* Recursive functions are possible
* Code can be evaluated dynamically at runtime with the Eval or
ExecuteGlobal functions
* A for loop For Each loop, and Select Case statement
These things said, I think FS has the resources to significantly revamp
its scripting capability, web infrastructure, and developer support. I
hope it chooses to compete on scripting again, rather than assume that its
prior investment and customer loyalties are sufficient. Both scripters
and users would benefit from such competition.
By the way, let me clarify for the record that I have no financial
relationship with GW or any other assistive technology company. Doug
Geoffray asked me to be a beta tester while the focus has been on
developing the scripting capability, and I have done my best to
contribute to that effort as a volunteer.
Regards,
Jamal
On
Mon, 21 Jul 2008, Geoff Chapman wrote:
> Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 00:51:59 +1000
> From: Geoff Chapman <gch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [jawsscripts] Jaws versus We thoughts,
> was silence in between Saying two messages
>
> Oh Doug, firstly please man don't think that I thought your view in any w=
ay
> an "emotional outburst," not at all. and personally I totally concur tha=
t
> your postulated supply&Demand time/resource prioritization reasons for it
> all, would definitely be part of the general overall equation.
>
> As you so aptly point out, the difficulty is when one tries to assess
> accurate weightings. nearly impossible probably to do accurately from th=
e
> outside.
>
> The only pragmatic thing we can do I guess, is to observe/regret the
> seeming lack of attention/courtesy phenominon, and it's likely continued
> impact upon developers who are wanting better tools to fix problems,
> especially if an alternative becomes a really viable option.
> I also totally concur with your concluding remarks regarding GW's somewha=
t
> late decision for an adoption of an integrated scripting model
> as providing pretty solid evidence as to the foresight and wisdom of fs's
> initial decision to provide a scripting paradigm for the necessary
> customizations they probably knew they would just never be able to totall=
y
> provide adequately inhouse, from the outset.
> I remember a conversation I had with doug geofray once way back somewhere=
in
> the late 90's, where I felt flattered enough that he actually took the ti=
me
> in an email to specificly ask me what it would take to persuade me
> personally to buy windoweyes, and I told him then, a macro or scripting
> facility for customization.
>
> It will indeed be very interesting to see what scripting makes of window
> eyes. particularly it's seemingly more open format that it has adopted,
> which I presume will allow a wider range of programmers more used to writ=
ing
> in alternate languages, to jump in to provide solutions, without having t=
o
> learn the caveats of the propriatory jaws scripting language.
> For many of us here I guess now somewhat entrenched in all the caveats an=
d
> work-arounds using the propriatory jaws language, it will be also
> interesting to se what it may do for fs's attention not only to what end
> user big paying government customers need/want, but to developers like
> yourselves, who really do know, and are constantly discovering through
> realTime practical usage,
> the tools that are needed to enhance the language to provide those end u=
ser
> solutions that in the final analysis,
> are going to be able to make those end user companies and thus customers
> happy.
>
> hmmm, this does raise some interesting questionbs to my mind however. Do
> you guys who do jaws scripting professionally, feel that this new player =
in
> the scene, may have some kind of effect upon your own work/income?
> Will you feel it incumbent upon you to have to be able to work in both
> arenas?
> And, a technical question perhaps to jamal as he seems to have been playi=
ng
> in both camps, Which of the languages that window eyes supports, would yo=
u
> say would most closely resemble the style of the jaws scripting language?
> or is learning multiple languages just sttandard fair for any professiona=
l
> programmers anywayz.
>
> Presumably though, window eyes will have it's own set of little quirky bi=
ts
> and caveats and work-arounds, that a person wanting to provide adequate e=
nd
> user solutions, would also have to become familiar with, to be compitent =
in
> both fields. would that be correct?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Lee" <doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 6:34 AM
> Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: silence in between Saying two messages
>
>
> > I often want shorter pauses, so customizability of this would be
> > interesting to me, though not a high priority. As for whether FS's
> > failure to implement new scripting features being, or not being
> > explained adequately by my supply-and-demand comparison, I can't say
> > when the line is crossed between "We can't do it" and "We don't want
> > to do it." I just want people to realize that the supply-and-demand
> > issue is real and is part of the equation, like it or not. My message
> > was not actually an emotional outburst, though it apparently looked
> > like one to some.
> >
> > And finally, as to the effect of Window-Eyes' scriptability on JAWS,
> > that will admittedly be interesting to see. The two products seem
> > markedly different in feel, and this will probably remain true even if
> > differences in functionality are reduced by this new power in WE. I
> > think this WE update will have effects on JAWS and on its position in
> > the market, though I can't say how fast. I also think this change in
> > WE effectively proves that scriptability was, from day 1, the right
> > design choice for JAWS because of the flexibility it added to the
> > product. It is a feature often misinterpreted, though probably not so
> > often by members of this list. <grin>
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 01:35:43AM +1000, Geoff Chapman wrote:
> > hmm, regarding this silencing and pausing issue, and perhaps touching u=
pon
> > some
> > of what jamal has talked about re sometimes getting
> > distinct lack of communication/feedback
> > from the fs company as regards user suggestions, - or at least not as
> often
> > as one might wish,
> > (by the way I am afraid
> > myself that I'd have to agree with jamal's view that I too see this as
> > having
> > regretably seemingly become rather an unfortunately entrenched pattern
> with
> > fs, and
> > not something I necessarily feel that's sufficiently or adequately
> accounted
> > for by
> > pure supply and demand time prioritization alone, - Another well known
> > scripter whom I sent jamal's comments to for his input concurred, and
> > sermized himself, that fs may not really turn this around until they
> > actually begin
> > to feel it's effects in their hip pockets,)
> > Which they may soon with window eyes scripting on the horizon, so that
> would
> > be great,
> > well, re pausing and indexing control,
> > I myself have felt for a very long time, that I've wanted far greater u=
ser
> > customization as to pause lengths after various punctuation marks,
> > independently controllable from speech rate settings. of course initial=
y
> > they should be dragged along with them in some kind of relative fashion=
,
> as
> > they are now, but, I've felt for a long time, that a really desirable
> > customization feature, would be to be able to have this more user
> > controllable upon
> > demand. I've always thought compared to the old dectalk speech synth,
> that
> > eloquence just rabbited on far too quickly after it's punctuation marks=
,
> > particularly ends of sentences,
> > and
> > sometimes of course, doesn't pause at all at various punctuation marks,
> > if you have the mode set to
> > things other than none,
> > which should also be user customizable in my view.
> > has anyone else ever thought this? I think for studying purposes, that
> > after some punctuation marks, some users would greatly benefit from hav=
ing
> > just a tad more time gap between the finishing of one sentence or part =
of
> a
> > sentence let's say, and it's next bit, for brain processing of the
> > information etc.
> > I just wondered if I was the only one who ever had wished this?
> >
> > From: "David Farough" <David.Farough@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: <jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:43 AM
> > Subject: [jawsscripts] Re: silence in between Saying two messages
> >
> >
> > > I found that when I tested this using eloquence and the SAPI5 scansof=
t
> > > synthe, that the silence was much longer using SAPI5 synthesizers.
> > >
> > > My eloquence time worked out to be slightly more than 2 seconds and t=
he
> > > Scansoft silences were closer to 20 seconds
> > >
> > > My eloquence speech rate is set to 90 and my scansoft rate is 13
> > > which is approximately 65%.
> > >
> > > David Farough
> > > Application Accessibility Coordinator/coordonateur de l'accessibilit?
> > > Information Technology Services Directorate /
> > > Direction des services d'information technologiques
> > > Public Service Commission / Commission de la fonction publique
> > > Email / Courriel: David.Farough@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Tel. / T?l: (613) 992-2779
> > > >>> "Smith, Alice A. HQ DCO" <Alice.A.Smith@xxxxxxx> 02:19 PM Frida=
y,
> > > July 18, 2008 >>>
> > > Sina,
> > >
> > > I wrote similar code using Delay. It works but I didn't time it with =
a
> > > stopwatch.
> > > How did you arrive at the factors of 28 for Rate and 6 for Silence?
> > > How accurate is it?
> > >
> > > Alice
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > [mailto:jawsscripts-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Sina Sotudehni=
a
> > > Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:17 PM
> > > To: jawsscripts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [jawsscripts] silence in between Saying two messages=3D20
> > >
> > > Hi friends,
> > > I think the following can be a solution for=3D20
> > >
> > > Saying two messages with a specific period of silence in between
> > >
> > > I sent it for test and I was waiting to get feedback on test result
> > > from
> > > any one who is interesting. But I did not get any answer yet.=3D20
> > >
> > > I want to know does this one work on same way with different computer
> > > speed and TTS as it works on my computer?
> > >
> > > In this program, (That is my first time Scripting in jaws), I am usin=
g
> > > Pause
> > >
> > > function to provide two type of delay.
> > >
> > > One delay to provide enough time that is required to speech the first
> > >
> > > string, and second delay for requested silence time after reading the
> > > first
> > >
> > > string.
> > >
> > > because the speed rate of voice is assigned by user, I get this value
> > > by
> > >
> > > using the following function that return the current voice speech
> > > rate:
> > >
> > > GetSettingInformation (V_RATE,VCTX_GLOBAL , MinRate, MaxRate)
> > >
> > > The first and second parameters are two Constant which are coming fro=
m
> > >
> > > hjconst.jsh" header file. (notice to, the "Include" statement before
> > > start
> > >
> > > of script). and the third and forth parameters ar two variable which
> > > get
> > > the
> > >
> > > minimum and maximum of the speed rate of Voice Context or any things
> > > that
> > >
> > > is requested by the two first parameters.
> > >
> > > after that I am finding the length of the first string. Then in a
> > > formula
> > >
> > > all this values are combining together with silence time and two othe=
r
> > >
> > > constant numbers.
> > >
> > > The number 28 is for balancing the Rate and the number 6 is for
> > > balancing
> > >
> > > the requested silence time.
> > >
> > > All of them make the total number of the time that we are using the
> > > Pause
> > >
> > > function.
> > >
> > > As I said, the calculation is not very accurate but it works for the
> > >
> > > different string length. As you all know, it is easier to convert thi=
s
> > >
> > > script to a function. In this case the function has to include two
> > >
> > > parameters, FirstString and SilenceTime. and the return value, can be
> > > an
> > >
> > > integer to show if the function end by itself or someone hit a key to
> > > end it
> > >
> > > manually.
> > >
> > > the function "StopSpeech ()", is good for make any speech off before,
> > > and
> > >
> > > after the using saystring command..
> > >
> > > Please let me know if it works for you. I Will be happy to get any
> > >
> > > feedback.
> > >
> > > ----------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > include "hjconst.jsh"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Script TestScripting ()
> > >
> > > var int count
> > >
> > > var int CurrentRate, int MinRate, int MaxRate, int StrLen, int
> > > SilenceSecond
> > >
> > > var string FirstString, String secondString
> > >
> > > let SilenceSecond =3D3D 3
> > >
> > > let FirstString=3D3D"The Script Manager is a JAWS script editing prog=
ram
> > > with
> > >
> > > all the features necessary for you to create scripts"
> > >
> > > let secondString=3D3D"So, continue Talking."
> > >
> > > let CurrentRate=3D3DGetSettingInformation (V_RATE,VCTX_GLOBAL , MinRa=
te,
> > >
> > > MaxRate)
> > >
> > > let StrLen=3D3DStringLength (FirstString)
> > >
> > > let count =3D3D (StrLen / CurrentRate +1) * 28 + SilenceSecond * 6
> > >
> > > StopSpeech ()
> > >
> > > saystring(FirstString)
> > >
> > > While (count > 0) && (not IsKeyWaiting ())
> > >
> > > Pause ()
> > >
> > > let count =3D3D count - 1
> > >
> > > EndWhile
> > >
> > > StopSpeech ()
> > >
> > > SayString (secondString)
> > >
> > > EndScript
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Sina Sotudehnia
> > >
> > > Independent Insurance Advisors Group
> > >
> > > Email: sina@xxxxxxxxxxx Web: www.IIAGROUP.CA
> > >
> > > Direct Tel: (416) 496-9300
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >
> > > __________?
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >
> > >
> > > 100 Years Merits a Celebration!
> > > http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/100/index-eng.htm
> > > 100 ans, ?a m?rite une c?l?bration!
> > > http://www.psc-cfp.gc.ca/100/index-fra.htm
> > >
> > >
> > > __________
> > > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> > >
> >
> > __________?
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> >
> > --
> > Doug Lee, Senior Accessibility Programmer
> > SSB BART Group - Accessibility-on-Demand
> > mailto:doug.lee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx http://www.ssbbartgroup.com
> > "While they were saying among themselves it cannot be done,
> > it was done." --Helen Keller
> > __________
> > View the list's information and change your settings at
> > //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
> >
>
> __________=A0
> View the list's information and change your settings at
> //www.freelists.org/list/jawsscripts
>
__________
View the list's information and change your settings at
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