Hi Darren, It is only a matter of weeks since I had a JAWS using, professional musician tell me that he had been using Cubase purely by memorising all the keystrokes and screens. Otherwise for the most part, JAWS was fairly silent. This is not really a good solution for a say a student in college, who is having a hard enough time of it simply learning the regular course material. George. -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Darren H Sent: 08 April 2008 17:25 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase Hi I've no doubt the Sonar with CakeTalking is great, that isn't really at question. What I'm trying to establish is why Cubase is considered to be not accessible when I know of at least one blind user, who has been blind far longer than he has been a musician, and he has very very few accessibility issue as, he says the vast majority of functions are associated with keystrokes and a bit of use with the jaws cursor. He uses Cubase very very successfully and he didn't have a 300 page manual to learn by, he just launch into it and found out what did and didn't work. So, would it be fair to say that something like CakeTalking is more targetted at people who need a little more hand holding from a computer standpoint. Cheers Darren ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Bell" <george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 4:33 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase I've purposely kept quiet here since I'm sure you don't want to hear sales and marketing blurb from the U.K. distributor of CakeTalking for Sonar. However, perhaps it is indeed time I chimed in. First, Sonar is indeed used in the majority of the UK's music conservatoires who have visually impaired students. And although not a sequencing program, so is the Sibelius score writing package. (Accessible with Sibelius Speaking) For various reasons I can't publicly give you a list of Sonar users I know, but be assured there are lost in the U.K. and indeed world-wide. Quite a few of these users are professionals with expensive DAWs and their own studios. Unfortunately, as Tristram has mentioned, Cubase and Pro-Tools have not been written with screen reader accessibility in mind, and even JAWS scripting doesn't get close. On the other hand, the Sonar developers have been very co-operative. I may as well drop the name, Stevie Wonder, into the discussion. He has become an enthusiastic Sonar user, and indeed Caketalking's developer has spent many hours with Stevie who had some valuable input. Caketalking isn't JUST a set of JAWS scripts. It also comes with a 300 page tutorial, and so by the time you've been through it, you'll have a very good idea of what sequencing is all about. George Bell Managing Director Techno-Vision Systems Ltd 76 Bunting Road Ind. Est. NORTHAMPTON, NN2 6EE, UK. Tel: (01604) 792726 Fax: (01604) 792726 mailto:george@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx web: http://www.techno-vision.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Tristram Llewellyn Sent: 08 April 2008 15:45 To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase "Of course Sonar is a successful product, but it's just not what most people use." I'm surprised because Cubase certainly in years gone by has not been such a big thing in the states, however perhaps the users you come accross are Windows based and if Cubase was big anywhere it was the Atari and Windows. Steinberg are based in Germany, it is not often that a European software title is anything like dominant in the US market. As for Pro Tools accessibility you may have miss-interpreted silence as being some kind of indication that it is off-topic which it isn't, sometimes you just haven't reached the right people or even the right list. Even in the UK nobody will be too shy to let you know what is on topic or not. Pro Tools is not presently accessible in any meaningful manner (to the best of my knowledge this is true for current releases) and few on this list will have had any direct experience with it at all. There have been petitions to Digidesign the developers, I do not know what progress, or lack of it has been made. In the professional world which is overwhelmingly Mac based there is a far bigger issue that VoiceOver lacks important infrastructure on which to provide the level of functionality required for that environment. Even talking in terms of Windows platform (on which it also does run) there would still need to be significant adaptions made. Digidesign have been trying to extend Pro Tools have however been doing a range of lower priced products with specific hardware (mostly M-Audio). As this reaches a market where visually impaired users are more likely to come accross it this issue may come into their radar. Regards. Tristram Llewellyn tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Technical Support Sight and Sound Technology -----Original Message----- From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of amie.slavin Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 8:00 PM To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase Hi Tristram, agreed, for the most part. Of course Sonar is a successful product, but it's just not what most people use, in my experience, anyway. I'd love to learn more about the ProTools platform, in terms of accessibility, but don't know where to find out. Did once tentatively ask this list but nobody answered, so I thought I'd better take the hint and regard it as off-topic. Thanks for your post; much appreciated. Cheers Amie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 5:40 PM Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase > Well to answer you first question, here is a page listing those who have > put their name to Sonar for what it is worth: > http://www.cakewalk.com/Artist/default.asp > > However in any case artist endorsements are not where it is at anyway, > they get paid or a free copy or something to say what a good time they > have with it. > > To very quickly go off on a tangent here most of what you hear in > sequenced material coming out in charts or whatever either side of the > pond has not been exclusively produced in either Cubase or for that matter > Sonar. The days when Cubase was used (because there was hardly anything > else) throughout pro studios all over the world are long gone. In the DAW > (Digital Audio Workstation) market Pro Tools rules with attendant starting > price tag of around £10,000 hardware and about half again in plug-ins (at > least!). Cubase or Sonar may be used to start off a project but you will > quite rarely find it used to finnish a top flight project. I am not > trying to say it is rubbish (see later) but just to fill you in on how it > fits into the general landscape these days. Last year recording in a > studio I had access to a Pro Tools system with a 196 channels and a price > tag of somewhere in the region of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" > hooked up to a a 96 chennel Audient analogue > desk considered quite cheap at £25,000 and soon to be replaced by > something about 5 to 7 times more expensive. There wasn't a Cubase to be > seen anywhere, although I am sure the studio owner could have dug us out > one if we had needed it and would probably have been a hire in option. > > So, what I am saying is that the best thing to do is choose the path of > least resistance and also what works for you, in terms of the former for > most new users this will be at presently that is Sonar, it could be > something else in five years. Maybe if you were a very competant Cubase > user to start with and then subsequently lost your sight later on and > stuck with the same version you could manage somehow if you had been > already very used to keyboard shortcuts etc. I have known of people who > were able to do that (at least for a time). However, not only is Sonar > not a bad choice (you can check out some of the mailing lists devoted to > using screen readers and Sonar) but it is the right choice given the > context that Cubase by no means holds the position it once did as > pre-eminent. > > Accessbility for most third party programs can be problematic at some > level or other via the screen whether it would be Sonar, Cuibase or > whatever because the developers are not at all focused on accessibility. > Fortunately there is a tremendous growth in external controller type > interfaces and many plugins can be controlled either by inserting MIDI > controllers directly into the sequence or via external control surfaces as > themselves. > > I hope that helps, for what it is worth I do own and use Cubase is my > hours off work and although I am not a JAWS or screen reader user I spend > many hours supporting screen readers and I know from personal experience > how Cubase operates in this context I can test it anytime I want. Leaving > accessibility asside I would definitely consider Sonar seriously, whilst > once it would have been a Mickey Mouse option these days it certainly > bears comparison with Cubase and also happens to be more accessible. > > Regards. > > Tristram Llewellyn > tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > Technical Support > Sight and Sound Technology > > -----Original Message----- > From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] > On Behalf Of amie.slavin > Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:49 PM > To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase > > So where are all these successful mainstream users of Sonar? I keep > hearing > how great Sonar is for accessibility, and how it's challenging Cubase for > industry standard status, but have yet to come across it at all, other > than > in the context of VI access. Also, how does Sonar handle plugins, created > by third parties? I use Cubase, but with lots of help. Know of one user > who used Cubase both before and after losing her sight, and says she uses > it > by memory. > > Darren, will write more off-list. > > Cheers > Amie > www.roughdiamondproductions.com/sound-artist > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tristram Llewellyn" <tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> > To: <jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> > Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 12:04 PM > Subject: [jaws-uk] Re: Jaws and Cubase > > >> There are no JAWS scripts for it, that is certainly true but it is not >> the whole story. Cubase is full of owner drawn controls which are quite >> non-standard and therefore not scriptable, so nobody has bothered when >> you can get Cakewalk Sonar to talk better. Your contact may be getting >> on well with Cubase through a combination of sheer determination and the >> generous provision of keystrokes and perhaps it is an earlier version as >> well. The important point is that you are much less likely to be able >> to replicate that experience yourself. >> >> If one were looking at sequencing for music Cubase would no longer >> necessarily be the automatic choice it once was in any case. Cakewalk >> Sonar is just as good and they are hungry for customers and are real >> advocates of the Windows platform itself unlike Steinberg who split >> their development between Windows and Mac. All of this means you get >> really good software for something that is equal to or cheaper in price >> than Cubase and can be made to talk either with the Caketalking scripts >> or others that are freely available. >> >> >> Regards. >> >> Tristram Llewellyn >> tristram.llewellyn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Technical Support >> Sight and Sound Technology >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> >> From: jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jaws-uk-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] >> On Behalf Of Darren H >> Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:15 AM >> To: jaws-uk@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> Subject: [jaws-uk] Jaws and Cubase >> >> >> Hi folks >> >> I've heard a lot of stuff about Cubase not being accessible for jaws >> users. >> >> Is this actually the case or is it just that Jaws has no scripts >> available for it and there's a lot of mucking about with the Jaws Cursor >> to get it to operate properly. >> >> I ask because I know of one blind Jaws user, using jaws 4.5 who uses >> Cubase very successfully. >> >> Yes, it's not for the fainthearted, but it obviously can be done. >> >> To my next question. >> >> Why are there no Jaws scripts available for Cubase as it's such a >> popular software application that uses standard windows operations. >> >> I'd appreciate any input. >> >> Cheers >> Darren Hartland >> www.bigmixentertainment.co.uk >> >> ____________________________________________________________ __________ >> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. >> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email >> ____________________________________________________________ __________ >> >> ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- >> ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] >> ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx >> ** and in the Subject line type >> ** unsubscribe >> ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the >> ** immediately-following link:- >> ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] >> ** or send a message, to >> ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq >> > > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > > > ____________________________________________________________ __________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email > ____________________________________________________________ __________ > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] > ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx > ** and in the Subject line type > ** unsubscribe > ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the > ** immediately-following link:- > ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] > ** or send a message, to > ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq > ** To leave the list, click on the immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=unsubscribe] ** If this link doesn't work then send a message to: ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx ** and in the Subject line type ** unsubscribe ** For other list commands such as vacation mode, click on the ** immediately-following link:- ** [mailto:jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx?subject=faq] ** or send a message, to ** jaws-uk-request@xxxxxxxxxxxxx with the Subject:- faq ____________________________________________________________ __________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. 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