[isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
- From: "Thor (Hammer of God)" <thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:30:52 -0700
http://www.ISAserver.org
-------------------------------------------------------
I'm hearing through the vine... Wish I was there to help out... You want I
should kick someone's ass for you? I will, you know..
t
On 10/19/06 6:24 PM, "Jim Harrison" <Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> ..you have no idea...
> :-(
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:12 PM
> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>
> http://www.ISAserver.org
> -------------------------------------------------------
>
> Don't worry about him... Jim's just roughing you up a bit... He's had a
> hard day.
>
> t
>
>
> On 10/19/06 3:43 PM, "Amy Babinchak" <amy@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> spoketh to all:
>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Fortunately my client list contains 0 P2P networks so it was
>> rhetorical question anyway. I have never seen an P2P network with an
>> internal DNS server so I'm wondering if this is common practice these
>> days among that that do P2P?
>>
>> Amy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 6:32 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Users don't care because they just "want you to make it work".
>> How you go about that within the framework of the current contract is
>> your business.
>>
>> If you're happy building P2P networks that depend on NB broadcast for
>> internal connectivity, that's up to you since you have to support
>> them, but I strongly encourage you to rethink this position.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:33 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I do often fear them because I only have so much time in my life to
>> learn new stuff. At least what I learn about one Microsoft app is
>> somewhat transferable to others.
>>
>> So what's the advantage of running DNS on an XP workstation on a
>> peer-peer network? I don't think the users are going to care and it'll
>
>> just be one more machine they have to keep running to keep the network
>
>> going. Just like the "print server" workstation.
>>
>>
>> Amy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:23 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> If there is a network, then there is at least one machine.
>> If they have one single machine, they can have a DNS server.
>> XP can run DNS services unless you're afraid of a non-MS solution.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:15 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> From his description I was assuming no server. He mentioned very small
>
>> businesses.
>>
>> Amy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Jim Harrison
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 4:49 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Sez hoo?
>> If you have a single machine, you have the possibility of operating
>> your own DNS service.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Amy Babinchak
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:47 PM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Joseph,
>>
>> Are you saying that you need DNS functionality on a network without a
>> firewall? In that case you have no choice but the use the DNS server
>> provided by the ISP. You also have larger security concerns than DNS.
>>
>> If what you are saying is you have a non-ISA non-SBS environment with
>> a firewall appliance you can usually use this appliance as the DNS
>> server for your workstations provided you buy one in the $200+ range.
>> If you go with the $50 model, when then you're in the same spot as
> paragraph 1.
>>
>> Amy
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of ISA
>> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:54 AM
>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Thor - a most excellent passage of DNS and network security.
>>
>> Unfortunately, I usually run into the typical client (as was this
>> case) that only has one server, one gateway (pikes, conicwell etc) and
>
>> a few clients.
>>
>> ISA, DMZ and hosting of anything themselves is out of the question
>> (except that which is offered by SBS 2003).
>>
>>
>> The fundamental question is how to best configure the network to allow
>
>> the clients and server to resolve internet names (where ISA/DMZ are
>> not present). I would assume that your clients are pointing to the
>> DC/DNS server!?! From there, there are a few options: Configure DNS
>> server to forward / not forward, configure it's NIC with for the ISP
>> DNS server IP etc.
>>
>> Actually I suppose this question/scenario might not be best addressed
>> from this list; since this list is dedicated to ISA which is an
>> enterprise product not represented well in the SMALL small business
>> market.
>>
>> Thanks again for the DNS brief - that'll be another one that I'll
>> archive for my records.
>>
>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>
>> Network Blade Inc.
>>
>> 49 Marcy Street
>>
>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>
>> 732-213-0600
>>
>> www.networkblade.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>> On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of God)
>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:50 PM Posted To: ISA
>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>
>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I've found that many people seem to dance over the security
>> ramifications of DNS/forwarders when designing an infrastructure. I
>> had some off-list conversations about this, and thought that it may be
>
>> valuable to fully flesh-out what I think the issues are and how to
>> avoid them. Now's also probably a good time to share my "trick"
>> regarding publicly available DNS and minimizing service exposure. So,
>
>> for the benefit of those who are
>> interested:
>>
>> When AD DNS is configured as a forwarder, all domain members using
>> that DNS server will be able to resolve hostnames directly from their
>> IP stack.
>> There is no operational reason to have this-- when one considers that
>> most spyware/malware/trojans/backdoors/shells/etc typically depend on
>> hostname lookups for direct access to a resource, the capability of a
>> client box to perform direct host lookups outside your network should
>> (to me) be considered unwanted and un-needed. Personally, I qualify
>> it as "dangerous."
>>
>> That's why I always configure my AD DNS with a root (.) zone- that
>> way, only local zones may be queried by the client's stack. I
>> typically only use web proxy clients for HTTP(S)/FTP where all DNS is
>> proxied by the ISA box.
>> If
>> one needs direct DNS for another application (say DOS FTP) then use
>> the FWC and all DNS will be resolved over the control channel, still
>> being proxied by the ISA server.
>>
>> The ISA server itself will have whatever "public" DNS server
>> configured in its stack so that it can do the resolution for the
> clients.
>>
>> Not only is direct client DNS "dangerous," but having an AD box set up
>
>> as a forwarder is "dangerous" as well as the box must be configured to
>
>> access a remote resource over TCP/UDP 53. This also means that you've
>
>> opened that box up for incoming traffic on TCP/UDP 53 as well. Having
>
>> static paths into your internal network from source port routing is
>> crazy. I can push anything I want over 53, not just DNS (and have ;).
>> Remember, the DNS filter is only for published DNS servers, not
>> clients requesting DNS lookups.
>>
>> But there is the issue of one wanting complete control over host names
>
>> and the need to publish your own DNS. This is what the DMZ is for.
>> The DMZ box is set as a forwarding server, and the internal ISA box is
>
>> set to use that box for all DNS requests. In this way, only the ISA
>> box itself need to request DNS outside the internal network, and it is
>
>> already protected.
>> In
>> this manner, there is no DNS leaving the internal network at all, and
>> no static ports into the internal network-- only the ISA box looking
>> up DNS, and only to that DMZ resource. The DNS server in the DMZ is
>> protected by the border ISA box, which (where necessary) is publishing
>
>> DNS to the DMZ for remote hosts to look up your domain information.
>> And here the DNS filter is used.
>>
>> But you can get even better than that-- you can actually be fully in
>> control of your own zone data without having to actually publish your
>> DNS to the world if you have a decent ISP.
>>
>> Here's what I do for that-- I have DMZ DNS servers set up as primary
>> DNS zones, and have told my ISP to set up their servers as secondary
>> zones for my domains. The DMZ box can only zone transfer to the IP's
>> of my ISP's DNS servers. Additionally the DMZ box is set to forward
>> to my ISP's cache servers. So, at this point, all internal AD DNS is
>> stopped at the controller, and only the ISA box can resolve DNS and
>> only to the DMZ DNS server. My internal Exchange clusters' stack
>> resolves to the AD controller, and they smart host deliver mail to my
>> DMZ GFI gateway, so still no DNS leaving. The GFI box in the DMZ uses
> the DMZ DNS.
>>
>> The trick is that though I'm primary DNS, and though any changes I
>> make to my DNS hosts are immediately replicated to my ISP as secondary
>
>> DNS, I've registered my DNS with the domain registry as my *ISP* being
>
>> primary.
>> So
>> the world resolves my host names via my *ISP's* DNS servers, not
> *mine*.
>> I
>> don't even have to publish DNS at all.
>>
>> The end result is that no DNS requests leave my internal network at
>> all, except for a single DNS box in the DMZ that can only resolve to
>> the ISP DNS caches. There is no publishing at all, no internal paths,
>
>> no vulns, nothing at all since the world resolves to the ISP boxes yet
>
>> I have full control over all host name entries.
>>
>> It's a pretty tight config.
>>
>> t
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10/18/06 11:01 AM, "Thomas W Shinder" <tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> spoketh to
>> all:
>>
>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> The T-Man is definitely right about this.
>>>
>>> Thomas W Shinder, M.D.
>>> Site: www.isaserver.org
>>> Blog: http://blogs.isaserver.org/shinder/
>>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7
>>> MVP -- Microsoft Firewalls (ISA)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Thor (Hammer of
>>>> God)
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:52 PM
>>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Why do your internal clients need to resolve DNS directly? I never
>>>> ever use forwarders on my AD boxes. I always create root zones on
>>>> my
>>
>>>> AD DNS servers and only use ISA to resolve DNS for web proxy/fw
>>>> clients.
>>>>
>>>> That's where what I consider "true" security and separation comes
>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> t
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/18/06 9:13 AM, "ISA" <ISA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> spoketh to all:
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This actually has happened with and without forwarders -
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve, I interpret your suggestion as using only the Root Hints?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>>
>>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>>
>>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>>
>>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:08 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>>> Conversation: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> FWIW.....I have 2 caching only DNS Servers that I setup to use as
>>>>> forwarders for my AD DNS Servers, when I use them, I get
>>>> the very same
>>>>> issue. If I however, remove them from the forwarders
>>>> section, I have no
>>>>> DNS Issues at all whatsoever, anytime.
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:03 PM
>>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Mike:
>>>>>
>>>>> I will try clearing the cache - but this happens now about everyday
>
>>>>> (morning usually). I really have to find the source of the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>>
>>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>>
>>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>>
>>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Michael Ross
>>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:01 PM Posted To: ISA
>>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows 2003 DNS servers?
>>>>> Believe it or not, ive seen that . It's a cache pollution type of
>>>>> behavior, with no logging or other signs to prove that.
>>>>> Try to clear the DNS cache next time and see if it helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:59 AM
>>>>> To: isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve: Funny you should say that because I've done that a few
> times.
>>>>>
>>>>> DNS stops - I removed the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>>> DNS stops - I change the forwards - Restart DNS - DNS works.
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to blame my server but I'm just not sure where the
>>>> failure is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Joseph Danielsen, MCSA-Messaging, MCP
>>>>>
>>>>> Network Blade Inc.
>>>>>
>>>>> 49 Marcy Street
>>>>>
>>>>> Somerset, NJ 08873
>>>>>
>>>>> 732-213-0600
>>>>>
>>>>> www.networkblade.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Steve Moffat
>>>>> Posted At: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:55 AM Posted To: ISA
>>>>> Conversation: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] Re: OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Remove the forwarders.....then see how fast your Internet speed
>>>>> gets...:)
>>>>>
>>>>> S
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> [mailto:isalist-bounce@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
>>>>> On Behalf Of ISA
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:49 PM
>>>>> To: ISA Mailing List
>>>>> Subject: [isalist] OT: DNS and Forwarders
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ISAserver.org
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello All -
>>>>>
>>>>> This might be off-topic, but has anyone every had their
>>>> Windows DNS/DC
>>>>> server intermittently stop forwarding DNS requests?
>>>>>
>>>>> I checked with the ISP and they don't recognize and
>>>> problems on their
>>>>> end.
>>>>>
>>>>> JD
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------
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>>>>>
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>>
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>
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