Hi Steve, FWIW, I also consider it a big issue. Gotomypc is a great security issue and I always block their site at companies who aren't using least priv for firewall policy (which is all companies that I've worked with, unfortunately). Tom www.isaserver.org/shinder Tom and Deb Shinder's Configuring ISA Server 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls -----Original Message----- From: Steve Thamasett [mailto:steve.thamasett@xxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:49 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remoteadministrationquestions http://www.ISAserver.org Raj, I never said that you would be "more prone to attack" if you outsourced to a third party. I said that *my* issues with services like this are 1) you can't audit the inbound connections because they are technically outbound connections from the firewall point of view, and 2) you are releasing control of your overall network security to a company who is *not* a Managed Security Provider (MSP) in the manner that you describe in your last post. I've worked with plenty of MSPs and for the most part they are extremely good at what they do (indeed they have to be for the $$$ they charge), but this is not the same thing. The question you need to ask is, "What is my legal recourse *if* my network is compromised as a result of a breach at gotomypc?". Some companies may not consider this a big issue and I'm sure that there are a lot of people who are happily using this service (or they wouldn't still be in business), but I'm not prepared to stake my clients security posture on *any* bridging service. Steve T. -----Original Message----- From: Periyasamy, Raj [mailto:Raj.Periyasamy@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 3:06 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remoteadministrationquestions http://www.ISAserver.org Steve, FYI, we outsource our entire firewall and EPR hosting to a third party and pay millions of dollars a year. Trust, me security compromise is a very generic statement, and can happen at any level. Just because you are outsourcing to a third party doesn't mean the 3rd party is careless in terms of security and you are more prone to attack. Certainly we don't outsource because its cheap, rather it's a lot more expensive. Rather they have a more dedicated data security infrastructure because that is their business. Although we have in house Cisco gurus, we still outsource that service. So don't consider just because you are using a third party you are prone to a compromise. Companies who do such business have what is called a written security and controls procedure, which will be followed meticulously in case of a security breach. They wont sit and watch while their clients are being hacked. HTH. Regards, Raj Periyasamy Systems Administrator MCSE(Messaging), CCNA -----Original Message----- From: Steve Thamasett [mailto:steve.thamasett@xxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:53 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administrationquestions http://www.ISAserver.org I don't want to speak for Jim, but my issue with gotomypc is the fact that you are now effectively outsourcing the security of your network to a third party. If the broker server is compromised, then your ISA box as well as any other security mechanism that you may have implemented for your network is nullified. Example: User A on my network initiates a connection to the broker server, doesn't tell anyone, and leaves for vacation. Sometime while he/she is gone, gotomypc is compromised (it can happen, I'm not saying it's _going_ to happen, but please just roll with the story). Bad guy uses the outstanding connection from User A to gain control of that PC and by proxy has access to my internal network without my knowledge because this is never seen as an inbound request to my firewall. Another issue I have with a service like this is that I cannot control/audit the remote connections coming into my network as I can with a VPN or even a dialup solution. This can cause regulatory issues depending on your line of business, at least in the States. My 2 cents, Steve T. -----Original Message----- From: Periyasamy, Raj [mailto:Raj.Periyasamy@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:26 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administrationquestions http://www.ISAserver.org I don't understand, The requests from the gotomypc will still pass through an ISA packet filter in "Outbound" direction, and is talking SSL to a secure server. All connections are initiated by a the host running the gotomypc. How is this any different from a regular PC in the network sending out connections to any other Internet site? How is it a security hole. The client initiates a request through the ISA, and ISA opens the port for the client and serves the connection. Authentication is controlled at every level of Gottomypc. Be more specific with your comments.....They are rather vague... HTH. Regards, Raj Periyasamy Systems Administrator MCSE(Messaging), CCNA -----Original Message----- From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 2:07 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org Yep - this is what we need; a process running on the firewall that's asking s remote, unknown (to the firewall) service if there's anyone asking for a connection. ..that's my definition of secure; yup-yup... ------------------------------------------------------- Jim Harrison MCP(NT4, W2K), A+, Network+, PCG http://isaserver.org/Jim_Harrison/ http://isatools.org Read the help / books / articles! ------------------------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Periyasamy, Raj [mailto:Raj.Periyasamy@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 10:59 To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org Just been reading this thread, and the first impression I got is no one knows how exactly gotomypc client/server components integrate and work. Unlike a published service through ISA firewall, gotomypc does not wait to listen for incoming requests, rather gotmypc "pings" a pre-registered secure broker Server to check if any secure authenticated sessions are awaitng to be serviced. In my opinion, this is as secure or more secure than having RDP enabled in a Internet facing host. Read this article for detailed info. By the way Gotomypc is a company owned by Citrix, I don't think Citrix would market an insecure product, considering the reputation Citrix has earnt worldwide. https://www.gotomypc.com/downloads/pdf/m/GoToMyPC_Personal_Overview.pdf HTH. Regards, Raj Periyasamy Systems Administrator MCSE(Messaging), CCNA -----Original Message----- From: Greg Mulholland [mailto:greg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 4:50 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org Ok then, mine too -----Original Message----- From: Thomas W Shinder [mailto:tshinder@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 11:40 AM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org mee2 Tom www.isaserver.org/shinder Tom and Deb Shinder's Configuring ISA Server 2004 http://tinyurl.com/3xqb7 MVP -- ISA Firewalls -----Original Message----- From: Jim Harrison [mailto:Jim@xxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 8:33 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org ..and me. Bear in mind that every networking application you add to (and make available from) your firewall increases the attack surface. HTTP applications have proven (regardless of author) to be the best attractor of 'Net meanies. Get rid of that applet-like toy... -----Original Message----- From: Steve Moffat [mailto:steve@xxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 4:30 PM To: [ISAserver.org Discussion List] Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org And me S -----Original Message----- From: Thor (Hammer of God) [mailto:thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 7:50 PM To: ISA Mailing List Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions http://www.ISAserver.org While it may expand your knowledge, it will decrease your security... RDP is more secure, and easier to control as a separate protocol/port than bundling difference services within a single protocol like HTTP. You also won't have to screw around with combined filters/rules (you said Win2k, but did not specify ISA2k, but I'm assuming that is what you meant) or proxy settings. So while this does not specifically answer your question, it does give you a better, faster, more secure alternative. Personally, I would never even consider putting GMPC on my ISA server for remote admin when TS is a far better way to go- but that's me. t ------ *Secure your infrastructure* Microsoft Ninjitsu: Securely Deploying MS Technologies security training delivered by Timothy Mullen. Registration now open for Blackhat Seattle 2005: http://www.blackhat.com/html/training-seattle-05/train-bh-sea-05-tm.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffry Nimeroff" <jeffry.nimeroff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> To: "[ISAserver.org Discussion List]" <isalist@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 3:16 PM Subject: [isalist] RE: ISA newbie with remote administration questions > http://www.ISAserver.org > > Personal choice. I am not a big fan of Remote Desktop. > > Also, I always like to participate in exercises that expand my knowledge, > and figuring out why the ISA box itself doesn't have the same privileges > (in terms of outbound connectivity) as the other boxes behind it is just > such an exercise. I have already test installed GMPC on two other > machines at my client. > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > List Archives: http://www.webelists.com/cgi/lyris.pl?enter=isalist > ISA Server Newsletter: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/newsletter.asp > ISA Server FAQ: http://www.isaserver.org/pages/larticle.asp?type=FAQ > ------------------------------------------------------ > Other Internet Software Marketing Sites: > World of Windows Networking: http://www.windowsnetworking.com Leading > Network Software Directory: http://www.serverfiles.com > No.1 Exchange Server Resource Site: http://www.msexchange.org Windows > Security Resource Site: http://www.windowsecurity.com/ Network > Security Library: http://www.secinf.net/ Windows 2000/NT Fax > Solutions: http://www.ntfaxfaq.com > ------------------------------------------------------ > You are currently subscribed to this ISAserver.org Discussion List as: > thor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > To unsubscribe visit 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