[ibis-macro] Minutes from the Nov 20, 27 and Dec 04 ibis-atm meetings
- From: Mike LaBonte <mike@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: IBIS-ATM <ibis-macro@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:35:38 -0500
Minutes from the Nov 20, 27 and Dec 04 ibis-atm meetings are attached.
Mike
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 20 Nov 2012
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Agilent: * Fangyi Rao
* Radek Biernacki
Altera: * David Banas
Julia Liu
Hazlina Ramly
Andrew Joy Consulting: Andy Joy
ANSYS: Samuel Mertens
* Dan Dvorscak
Curtis Clark
Steve Pytel
* Luis Armenta
Arrow Electronics: Ian Dodd
Cadence Design Systems: Terry Jernberg
* Ambrish Varma
Feras Al-Hawari
Brad Brim
Kumar Keshavan
Ken Willis
Cavium Networks: Johann Nittmann
Celsionix: Kellee Crisafulli
Cisco Systems: Ashwin Vasudevan
Syed Huq
Ericsson: Anders Ekholm
IBM: Greg Edlund
Intel: Michael Mirmak
Maxim Integrated Products: Mahbubul Bari
Hassan Raghat
Ron Olisar
Mentor Graphics: * John Angulo
Zhen Mu
* Arpad Muranyi
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov
Micron Technology: Randy Wolff
Justin Butterfield
NetLogic Microsystems: Ryan Couts
Nokia-Siemens Networks: Eckhard Lenski
QLogic Corp. James Zhou
SiSoft: * Walter Katz
Todd Westerhoff
Doug Burns
* Mike LaBonte
Snowbush IP: Marcus Van Ierssel
ST Micro: Syed Sadeghi
Teraspeed Consulting Group: Scott McMorrow
* Bob Ross
TI: Casey Morrison
Alfred Chong
Vitesse Semiconductor: Eric Sweetman
Xilinx: Mustansir Fanaswalla
Ray Anderson
The meeting was led by Arpad Muranyi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Arpad unavailable for the 11/13 meeting. Since that also coincides with
the Asian Summit, the group agreed to cancel the meeting on 11/13.
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- None
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Arpad to send the new draft 11 of BIRD 121.2 to Mike L. to post to the ATM
website.
- Done
- Fangyi, Mahbubul, et. al., to discuss merging their "Redriver" proposal with
BIRD 131.
- TBD
- Fangyi, Mahbubul, et. al., contact Walter and Ambrish for further BIRD 131
discussions.
- TBD
-------------
New Discussion:
- Fangyi: Bit time is not a model parameter
- This may be an IBM-specific problem
- Arpad: If we require far-fetched parameters not every simulator will support
it
- Ambrish: These intrinsic parameters are only for dependency tables
- Arpad: No they can be used for other purposes
- There could be a model-specific corner for example
- Fangyi: That might be uncorrelated to the main Corner
- Walter: Intrinsic is strictly for dependency tables
- Ambrish: A model may need corner information
- Walter: No need for a corner parameter, bit time is already passed
- Arpad: Some parameters might be expressed in terms of other parameters
- Walter: We could have that in the language, but we don't now
- Arpad showed BIRD150.1_draft4
- Arpad: We could use Format Bit_Time
- Walter: That is not a legal format
- Ambrish: Maybe these should be reserved parameters
- Walter: I call that intrinsic
- Radek: What if a bit time not in the table is given?
- Walter: If Out_Match is used that is an error
- Ambrish: It could be Out_PWL
- Walter: This allows multiple models to use the same AMI file
- Arpad: I'm confused about the sentence at the bottom
- Walter: It may be poorly worded
- They can only be inputs to a dependency table
- It needs to be explained better
- Does this satisfy what David needs?
- David: Yes
- Ambrish: What kind of parameters will these be?
- David: Why would we have "Model" as an input?
- It would be good to have a list of words that can't be Model_Specific
parameters
- Bob: "bit_time" is lowercase?
- Walter: It is in the IBIS spec
AR: Walter provide better explanation for intrinsic parameters in BIRD draft
Walter: Two issues:
- How does back-channel work with a repeater?
- With redrivers we still need an impulse response for the repeater device
- The stimulus is not digital
- Classic IBIS will not understand it
- Fangyi: We have a description of that
- The impulse is not limited to event triggered drivers
- It could be an analog element
- There is no contradiction
- Walter: It needs to be clarified
- Arpad: You have an AR to work on that
- John: Ambrish asked to be included in that effort
-------------
Next meeting: 27 Nov 2012 12:00pm PT
Next agenda:
1) Task list item discussions
-------------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 27 Nov 2012
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Agilent: * Fangyi Rao
* Radek Biernacki
Altera: * David Banas
Julia Liu
Hazlina Ramly
Andrew Joy Consulting: Andy Joy
ANSYS: Samuel Mertens
* Dan Dvorscak
* Curtis Clark
Steve Pytel
* Luis Armenta
Arrow Electronics: Ian Dodd
Cadence Design Systems: Terry Jernberg
* Ambrish Varma
Feras Al-Hawari
Brad Brim
Kumar Keshavan
Ken Willis
Cavium Networks: Johann Nittmann
Celsionix: Kellee Crisafulli
Cisco Systems: Ashwin Vasudevan
Syed Huq
Ericsson: Anders Ekholm
IBM: Greg Edlund
Intel: * Michael Mirmak
Maxim Integrated Products: Mahbubul Bari
Hassan Raghat
Ron Olisar
Mentor Graphics: * John Angulo
Zhen Mu
* Arpad Muranyi
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov
Micron Technology: Randy Wolff
Justin Butterfield
NetLogic Microsystems: Ryan Couts
Nokia-Siemens Networks: Eckhard Lenski
QLogic Corp. James Zhou
SiSoft: * Walter Katz
Todd Westerhoff
Doug Burns
* Mike LaBonte
Snowbush IP: Marcus Van Ierssel
ST Micro: Syed Sadeghi
Teraspeed Consulting Group: Scott McMorrow
Bob Ross
TI: Casey Morrison
Alfred Chong
Vitesse Semiconductor: Eric Sweetman
Xilinx: Mustansir Fanaswalla
Ray Anderson
The meeting was led by Arpad Muranyi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Arpad: We will have 3 meetings in December
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- None
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Walter provide better explanation for intrinsic parameters in BIRD 150 draft
- Done
- Arpad to send BIRD 121.2 to Open Forum
- Done, posted to IBIS website
- Fangyi, Mahbubul, et. al., to discuss merging their "Redriver" proposal with
BIRD 131.
- In progress
-------------
New Discussion:
Interconnect report:
- MM: EMD can be used to address packaging
- Investigating use of parameter tree format for this
- Walter: It was suggested that we do EMD first, then the .ibs part for
packaging
BIRD 150:
- Arpad showed BIRD_150.1_draft5
- Arpad: Dependency_Table is not actually a parameter, needs new terminology
- Mike: It could be called a "construct"
- Radek: It actually is a parameter
- Arpad: It is not sent to the DLL
- Fangyi: Is it stated the this is not part of the DLL input?
- Arpad: It does not have it's own Format like parameters, it inherits other
Formats
- Fangyi: Mainly it is not used by the model, doesn't completely belong in the
AMI file
- Ambrish: We should say the Usage Decency_Table is not sent to the DLL
- Arpad: Can we change the part about "easier for the systems designer"?
- Walter: It is "easier for parameter relationships to be programmatically
defined"
- Arpad: Is the "Labels row" section left over? We have no labels.
- Walter: Page 4 describes parameter names
- Arpad: "for that Parameter based" is an incomplete fragment
- Walter: "based" should go away
- Curtis: "parameters defined in the table" should be "parameters used in the
table"
- Arpad: The Out_Match description is hard to understand
- Walter explained Out_Closest, Out_Range, Out_PWL.
- Arpad: The "must contain numeric data" phrase suddenly introduces numeric
data in
a section about exact matching
- Radek: The paragraph should be moved after the definitions.
- Mike: This must be written so that it can be read with fewer questions.
- Arpad: What is the "equal choices" sentence for?
- Walter: To choose which way to go when the input value is halfway between two
choices
- Fangyi: There could be a platform precision issue
- Arpad: The language needs to be clearer
- Arpad: "numerically larger row" needs to be clearer
- Mike: "larger" should be "greater"
- Arpad: What is the note about "intrinsic" here?
- Walter: The definition is "Belonging to the essential nature or constitution
of a thing"
- Walter explained the intrinsic reserved parameters
- Arpad: bit_time should not be allowed to be zero
- Walter: Agree, BAUD is in the same category
- Fangyi: Does Corner apply to things other than AMI parameters?
- I have have some parameters at min, others at max
- Walter: No, one corner is used for all parameters, but the value arrangement
can be different
- Fangyi: "If these parameters were specified" is confusing
- Walter: Agree
- Arpad: The Type line is not needed
- Walter: Agree
- Fangyi: What is Model_Name?
- Walter: It is a parameter defined above
- Radek: "intrinsic" still may not be right
- Fangyi: They really are simulator parameters, not model parameters
-------------
Next meeting: 4 Dec 2012 12:00pm PT
Next agenda:
1) Task list item discussions
-------------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
IBIS Macromodel Task Group
Meeting date: 04 Dec 2012
Members (asterisk for those attending):
Agilent: * Fangyi Rao
* Radek Biernacki
Altera: * David Banas
Julia Liu
Hazlina Ramly
Andrew Joy Consulting: Andy Joy
ANSYS: Samuel Mertens
* Dan Dvorscak
Curtis Clark
Steve Pytel
* Luis Armenta
Arrow Electronics: Ian Dodd
Cadence Design Systems: Terry Jernberg
* Ambrish Varma
Feras Al-Hawari
Brad Brim
Kumar Keshavan
Ken Willis
Cavium Networks: Johann Nittmann
Celsionix: Kellee Crisafulli
Cisco Systems: Ashwin Vasudevan
Syed Huq
Ericsson: Anders Ekholm
IBM: Greg Edlund
Intel: * Michael Mirmak
Maxim Integrated Products: Mahbubul Bari
Hassan Raghat
Ron Olisar
Mentor Graphics: John Angulo
Zhen Mu
* Arpad Muranyi
Vladimir Dmitriev-Zdorov
Micron Technology: Randy Wolff
Justin Butterfield
NetLogic Microsystems: Ryan Couts
Nokia-Siemens Networks: Eckhard Lenski
QLogic Corp. James Zhou
SiSoft: * Walter Katz
Todd Westerhoff
Doug Burns
* Mike LaBonte
Snowbush IP: Marcus Van Ierssel
ST Micro: Syed Sadeghi
Teraspeed Consulting Group: Scott McMorrow
* Bob Ross
TI: Casey Morrison
Alfred Chong
Vitesse Semiconductor: Eric Sweetman
Xilinx: Mustansir Fanaswalla
Ray Anderson
The meeting was led by Arpad Muranyi
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opens:
- Arpad: We will have 3 meetings in December
--------------------------
Call for patent disclosure:
- None
-------------
Review of ARs:
- Walter update BIRD 150 with comments received
- Done
- Mike post Walter's updated BIRD 150 on the ATM website
- Done
- Fangyi, Mahbubul, et. al., to discuss merging their "Redriver" proposal with
BIRD 131.
- In progress
-------------
New Discussion:
Interconnect report:
- Michael Mirmak recapped recent progress
BIRD 150:
- Walter showed BIRD150.1_draft6
- Walter explained the operation of Out_Match
- Arpad: "Columns Types" needs to be fixed
- Also "parameters" is misspelled in the next paragraph.
- David: Is "the values of the dependent values" redundant?
- Walter changed to "values of the dependent parameters"
- Ambrish: This is to avoid large AMI files with all possible parameter
settings?
- Walter: A Range parameter for example has infinite values
- Walter explained the operation of Out_Closest
- This involves upper and lower bounds
Walter's audio connection was lost
Retimer:
- Fangyi: Walter's question about retimers working with backchannel is valid
- The backchannel could bypass mid-channel devices
- Or we could have a more sophisticated setup with the mid-channel handling it
Walter resumed BIRD 150:
- Walter: Out_PWL can not be used for String or Boolean
- Radek: It may be that not all software will choose Closest the same
- They may round differently
- Walter added a sentence to warn about this.
- Walter: This is a universal problem, not easily avoided.
- Fangyi: This can't go diagonal, it has to be X and Y
- Walter: Correct
- Fangyi: Is the dependency table input to AMI_Init()?
- Walter: No, there is a line saying that, not sure where
- Ambrish: On page 5 is there one example or two?
- Walter went over the examples
- One lacks a label
- Bob: What happens when a value outside the range is selected?
- Walter: The nearest is chosen
- Fangyi: In the last meeting we had a naming issue
- Walter: There are now called "Simulation Reserved Parameters"
- Ambrish: It should be clear that they are only for dependency tables
- Fangyi: "may not be" should be "can not be" in the restrictions
- Walter made that change.
- Fangyi: The dependent parameters can not be model specific?
- Walter: There is no need for that restriction
- Arpad: What is the Type of parameters only used by a table?
- Walter: It should be Info
- Walter added a sentence require Usage Info
- Mike: We could say that doesn't matter, or disallow it
- Ambrish: Info is information for the user or EDA tool
- Arpad: If a parameter is never seen by the user it is not Info
- Walter: We may be wordsmithing too much ahead of voting
- Ambrish: We may not need the last column
- Ambrish: Fangyi's retimer proposal will be on the agenda next week
-------------
Next meeting: 11 Dec 2012 12:00pm PT
Next agenda:
1) Task list item discussions
-------------
IBIS Interconnect SPICE Wish List:
1) Simulator directives
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