Nick, I can easily see JA's problem. Anybody's problem actually. We do have Scripture. It standing alone is very complex and even seemingly contradictory. For example, If we take Mathew Chapter25, when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. Does he say, come all you who have been to confession and are in the state of Grace of the Catholic Church, come into my heaven provided for you? No Does He say to the goats go ye into the eternal fires prepared for you, because you died in sin outside the Catholic Church and failed to go to confession and be in a state of Grace" NO! If one were to take this chapter seriously, only the Good Samaritans will be the sheep who are saved. The priests, the Levites , the Church goers, et al who did not help the strangers in need, it is they who are lost. One thing is certain here, is that He did not say to all the sheep and all the goats ,, I died for all your sins, and you are all saved. Come into the happiness I have prepared for you. And on this day He did not say, You did not eat my flesh or drink my blood ,depart ye into the fires. And on this day,He did not say,you did not sell all and give it to the poor, so be damned with you. Confusing Eh? How could I put my trust entirely in the meanderings of my own intelligence and comprehension of ANY written word. Poor man indeed would I be had I been born into the world a peasant before the age of the printing press when a hand written scripture took almost a full lifetime of a man to write a copy, and no one taught me to read anyway. Poor man indeed, had I been born into a world where the only printed book I ever saw was the Koran. Philip. ----- Original Message ----- From: Niemann, Nicholas K. To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 7:16 AM Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus JA, Thank you for your opinions. Of course, that's all they are. Since you are fallible, you are capable of being wrong on pretty much everything you profess. You really don't know for sure, do you. So, I'm letting you in on something. Christ established the Catholic Church and He assured it that the successors to St. Peter would be infallible when speaking to the whole Church on matters of faith and morals. This same infallible Pope, in passing down Christ's teachings, has proclaimed infallibly that there is no salvation for those outside of the Catholic Church. You can ignore all of this and, as they say, be fat, dumb and happy in your uninformed, fallible beliefs. Or you can with an open and honest truth seeking heart and mind check out the actual claims made by the Catholic Church, with a willingness to go where the truth actually leads you. It's your call. All I can do is point out something you are clearly oblivious to. But realize, when you actually do face Christ upon your death, and He tells you the same thing I've just told you, you won't have the excuse of saying you had no way of knowing. Regards, Nick. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 3:36 PM To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus Nick, I appreciate your concern for my soul, but since I accept Jesus Christs' sacrifice on the cross as payment for my sins and the method of my souls' reconnection to God, I do not see why you should be concerned. It does not matter what church I go to nor with whom I associate. Salvation is a gift of Gods' grace and my imperfect actions and thoughts cannot change that. Your concern for the soul of a christian because he's not catholic is one of the reasons why I and others reject catholicism in the first place. I once listened to a non-denomination sermon that questioned the salvation of catholics. I didn't like that point of view either. No Pope or priest or church holds the key to my salvation nor yours. Jesus and Jesus alone, holds that key. As for God giving Infallibility to anyone, Jesus is the only one. Why would God give such a gift to someone selected by men? God has always picked the one no-one would expect. Such a thought seems an insult to God. Man forms a church and elects a leader and man expects God to gift this man with Infallibility when discussing God? This is backwards and upside down and wrong on every level. As for Popes contradicting themselves, I wouldn't know. But if my salvation depends on recognizing them or belonging to thier church or confessing to a priest or any other worldly, superficial, or "works" based condition you want to name, as seems to be required of catholics by their popes, then they have contradicted Jesus. Don't you consider him the first Pope? And therefore, I do not believe God has given this ability to the Popes. JA "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote: JA, Thank you for your follow up and what I believe is intended by you as an honest answer. When you say you could be wrong, "just like everyone else", you really don't know everyone else could be wrong, since you admit you could be wrong anything. So, this is just your opinion, correct? And just the opposite could be true. Wouldn't it make sense to diligently explore whether God has given this infallibility to someone, such as the Catholic Pope. You have to admit this could impact your salvation. Have you ever studied the first hand Catholic claim to this from the actual Catholic teachings on it. You'll find it is Biblically based. And you'll find the official teachings of the Popes never have contradicted themselves. It's your soul, I'm just giving you fair warning. Regards, Nick. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Friday, July 01, 2005 5:25 PM To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus Hey Nick, Yes, I could be wrong about anything I think, just like everyone else. I pray for wisdom and the ability to see the truth daily. I expect this will be a lifelong process and at the end will still be wrong about many things. In the meantime, I will use the knowledge I have at the moment. Right now, in my opinion, I don't think that it is part of God's current plan to give that particular gift to any specific person and hasn't since the writting of the new testament books. Since the word was finished, there is no more to say. But I could be wrong. JA "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote: Hi ja, Since your answer was "Anything is possible for God except for violating his own word." and since giving someone the ability to be infallible on religious matters does not violate His Word, I'll take it that you are logically concluding "yes" to my question, i.e. that it is possible God has given a human today the ability to always be right when speaking on matters of religious faith. Did I follow your logic? But since the Pope is a human, he could logically be one of the persons, except you say it is inconceivable that God is giving this gift to the Popes, because you believe the Popes have erred. So, the next question is whether it is possible you have erred and the Popes are right. Can you answer this simple question. The question is whether this is "possible", not whether it is so or not. Or are you claiming you are infallible? (You have brought up the Catholic question, as has Neville by his outburst the other day by challenging 2000 year old consistent Catholic teachings. I'm just following it thru, until Neville acuses me of somehow initiating this and cuts me off as he did in the past when I followed up his comments). Nick. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: j a [mailto:ja_777_aj@xxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:23 PM To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus I like logic questions so I'll take a stab at it. Anything is possible for God except for violating his own word. I take it your pursuit of this question is to convince others that the Pope could be infallible in his pronouncements. While it is concievable that God might help someone along on occassion in what they might say to someone, it is inconcievable that God is giving this gift to the Popes because they have erred so much in the past and rule over a church so steeped in bogus doctrine. Now don't go off asking me to defend the catholic bogus doctrine claim, I state it because that is what most any non-catholic christian thinks of catholicism. So why would anyone holding that opinion, be convinced that the popes are infallible simply because it could be possible? If it were true that the popes were infallible then most non-catholic christians would probably be catholics because the catholic church would be a vastly different place. It would adhere to the teaching as found only in the bible, because God would never violate his own word. Therfore, the popes are not infallible. Has any pope ever uttered a God inspired word? Everytime they quote scripture, just like any other person. Anyway, thats my logic on that question. Please don't let this start the catholic/non-catholic arguements again. This was only to address the logic involved in the question. "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote: Neville, Is this a question you don't know the answer to or a question you just won't answer because you know where the logic then leads. Please be honest. Can almighty God do this today? I asked if it is "possible". Can the God who created the universe also do this? Regards, Nick. Nicholas K. Niemann McGrath North Mullin & Kratz, PC LLO Suite 3700 First National Tower 1601 Dodge Street Omaha, NE 68102 402-633-1489 (Direct Phone) 402-952-1889 (Direct Fax) 402-301-3373 (Cell Phone) nniemann@xxxxxxxx www.mnmk.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Dr. Neville Jones [mailto:ntj005@xxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 8:59 AM To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Saul of Tarsus This is not a question that I can answer. Regards, Neville. "Niemann, Nicholas K." <NNiemann@xxxxxxxx> wrote: Sure. Is it possible God has given a human living today the ability to always be right when speaking on matters of religious faith. Regards, Nick. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! 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