[geocentrism] Re: Ancient calendars-Velikovsky
- From: Carl Felland <cfelland@xxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:45:49 -0600
Gary,
Twelve 30 day months in a 360 day year seems like a perfect Biblical
system. Is this what it was before Isaiah's time? Can it be modelled?
Thanks for referring to David Rohl. I also know that James McCanney has
attempted to build on Velikovsky's work.
Carl
Gary Shelton wrote:
>Carl,
>
>One other thing that was interesting about Velikovsky I recall was his
>research on the 360 day calendar and how it began about the time of Isaiah,
>or thereabouts. Before that there was a 360 day calendar. After that, 5
>"Gatha" days were added to the calendar to make the solstices and equinoxes
>all jive.
>
>Velikovsky submitted that we shouldn't hold the ancients in such disrepect
>to believe that they wouldn't have figured out a problem with their calendar
>before this time of Isaiah.
>
>The time of Isaiah was also, of course, the time of Hezekiah and his extra
>15 years, and this was also the time of Mars' close approach to the earth,
>causing (as V.postulated) the change in the sundial shadow.
>
>Since it was supposedly written about the same time, Homer's Illiad drew
>Velikovsky's attention. Upon close analysis, Velikovsky felt it was a huge
>analogy depicting a cosmic battle. All the planets had names. Jupiter was
>Zeus and Venus was Athena and was reputed to be "Zeus's offspring" thereby
>bringing about the speculation that she was emitted from the Great Red Spot
>of Jupiter.
>
>Mars (Ares) and the earth (Hera) did battle and Athena warned Aphrodite (the
>moon) to keep out of the fray.
>
>Possibly, Velikovsky stated, the moon did at one time have ten equal months
>of 30 days each before this time.
>
>I'm no expert, but this is a very fascinating subject.
>
>Velikovsky's writings were really all one big book entitled "Ages in Chaos",
>as that was the theme of his entire body of works. "Worlds in Collision"
>was the first in the series and every book that followed was just another
>piece of the puzzle in that enormous re-writing of ancient history that
>Velikovsky undertook. His last book "Ramses II and His Time" showed
>Velikovsky being a bit scared off by the critics, perhaps. He almost named
>it Ramses II and Nebuchadnezzar but he thought the uproar would be more than
>he could bear.
>
>Ramses II supposedly lived about 1300 BC and Nebuchadnezzar more like 600
>BC. They couldn't possibly have been contemporaries...or could they? The
>Battle of Carchemesh (614 BC.) was supposedly where Nebbie beat Ramses'
>backside and became the new kid on the block.
>
>Velikovsky made some errors. He can't be taken without a grain of salt.
>But I say this again for the record. Right or wrong, his works vouched for
>the Bible timeline, while bringing to the world's attention the megolithic
>errors of the Egyptian timeline. And remember, the import of using the
>Egyptian timeline for modern scholars is that the Bible is disregarded as an
>unimportant writing by an insignifigant group of Hebrew slaves that was
>never a big deal to the mighty Egyptians. This was plainly not so because
>the Assyrians and Chaldeans and ancient Greeks all verified the Biblical
>stories despite the fact that the Egyptians did not. Yet somehow, the
>Egyptian timeline is what we still use.
>
>David Rohl is a force in this subject today.
>
>Sincerely,
>Gary
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carl Felland" <cfelland@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Friday, February 25, 2005 7:23 AM
>Subject: [geocentrism] Re: Ancient calendars-Velikovsky
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Gary,
>>I appreciate your welcome and your sharing your knowledge of
>>Velikovsky's works. I have much to learn. I have read only Worlds in
>>Collision, but have ordered several other of his books from ebay. These
>>other books have not yet arrived because I did not want to pay for
>>airmail from England... Now, whether I have fallen in love with his
>>writings, I'm not sure. But, I surely don't want to discount his
>>information.
>>
>>Carl
>>
>>
>>Gary Shelton wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hello Carl, and welcome.
>>>
>>>I might be one of the few people who can say he totally fell into love
>>>
>>>
>with
>
>
>>>Velikovsky's writings. I read every one of his books, I believe, and
>>>
>>>
>found
>
>
>>>him thoroughly fascinating. That was about 10 years ago. I have learned
>>>much since then, and, for one, no longer fall into the devoted Velikovsky
>>>camp. For example, I no longer believe the Queen of Sheba was the same
>>>person as the pharoah Hatshepsut. David Rohl in his book Pharaohs and
>>>
>>>
>Kings
>
>
>>>pretty much knocked this out with his identification of Saul being Lebayu
>>>
>>>
>in
>
>
>>>the Egyptian writings, though this doesn't discount V's thesis being a
>>>
>>>
>heck
>
>
>>>of a read, in my opinion. That he didn't get all the details right has
>>>
>>>
>got
>
>
>>>him a lot of bad press over the years. This is true. But its hardly
>>>
>>>
>fair.
>
>
>>>Velikovsky was a free thinker who saw that the King Had No Clothes. He
>>>
>>>
>saw
>
>
>>>that the standard Eyptian timeline was enormously out of whack. And it
>>>
>>>
>had
>
>
>>>been that way since the decoding of the Rosetta Stone. Even to this day,
>>>the truth of the screwed up Egyptian timeline still serves to anchor down
>>>the truth with its wrong-headed thinking.
>>>
>>>So, the main benefit of Velikovsky's work, in my humble opinion, and one
>>>that was never properly credited in my view, was his bringing back to the
>>>Bible back some of its long lost credence. V showed how some of the
>>>
>>>
>stories
>
>
>>>could have been true, timewise, and possibly were in reality, actually
>>>
>>>
>true.
>
>
>>>For instance, where did the manna come from that fed the Children of
>>>
>>>
>Israel
>
>
>>>in the desert? Velikovsky postulated that Venus' cometary tail (Venus
>>>
>>>
>had
>
>
>>>been previously claimed to have been a comet expelled from the Great Red
>>>Spot of Jupiter) near flyby could have accounted for that occurring at
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>precise time.
>>>And even more intriguingly, Velikovsky identified Egyptian monument
>>>
>>>
>writing
>
>
>>>discussing a pharaoh who died in a mysterious "whirlpool" at a place
>>>
>>>
>called
>
>
>>>Pi-ha-Khiroth...the same exact place the Israelites encamped on the Red
>>>
>>>
>Sea
>
>
>>>in the book of Exodus. The pharaoh identified was not Ramses II.
>>>
>>>Nonetheless, the secular school of thought couldn't accept any of this.
>>>They had to use an alternative to the Bible, so they chose the Egyptian
>>>timeline, right or wrong, and have stuck with it despite all of the
>>>
>>>
>dogged
>
>
>>>evidence of things like the fact that Ramses III (conventionally lived
>>>
>>>
>1200
>
>
>>>BC or so) had Greek inscriptions on his mortuary monument in the Nile
>>>
>>>
>delta
>
>
>>>dating from the days of Plato, or 400 BC, not 1200 BC.
>>>
>>>Carl, Cheryl here gave us a website to a Gordon Bane's site where he
>>>
>>>
>talks
>
>
>>>about Fibonacci numbers. (That site is
>>>http://www.geocentricbible.com/id25.htm if you care to check it out.)
>>>
>>>
>One
>
>
>>>of the intriguing things is how they skip the earth and how the only
>>>discrepancies of any note apply to Venus and Mars. The author, one Fred
>>>Wilson, attributes this to the cataclysm at the time of the Biblical
>>>
>>>
>Flood.
>
>
>>>Velikovsky, of course as you know, discussed Venus and Mars extensively
>>>
>>>
>in
>
>
>>>his writings, and how they approached the earth, especially Venus in
>>>
>>>
>Worlds
>
>
>>>in Collision. For those who haven't read it, V makes a good case for the
>>>period of Venus in those days being the cause for the 50 year Jubilee
>>>
>>>
>(still
>
>
>>>observed today) asking, of course, why it wasn't 49 years...a more
>>>
>>>
>Biblical
>
>
>>>number. Also, the time of Hezekiah's extended life on earth was reputed,
>>>
>>>
>by
>
>
>>>Velikovsky, to correspond the the 15 year period of Mars' close approach
>>>
>>>
>to
>
>
>>>the earth. V claimed that this is what caused the Biblical shadow to
>>>
>>>
>move
>
>
>>>backward and then forward the ten degrees.
>>>
>>>Despite his shortcomings, I always felt V's identification of the Greek's
>>>"Oedipus" with the Egyptian "Akhnaton" to be powerfully compelling. His
>>>side by side comparison of the family trees between the two characters,
>>>
>>>
>one
>
>
>>>fictitious, one real, is nothing short of astounding. They are exact
>>>copies. V's connection as to how Aknaton obliterated references to his
>>>father throughout Egypt and how Queen Tuy, Akhnaton's mother, was always
>>>around....fascinating. Read Oedipus and Akhnaton for the story.
>>>
>>>Velikovsky's third book, Earth in Upheaval, was an eye-opening look at
>>>catastrophism, written in the mid 50's. With the notable and
>>>
>>>
>non-sequitur
>
>
>>>exception of his advocacy of punctuated evolution in that book, he made a
>>>superb case for creationism's young earth. The La Brea Tar Pits, the
>>>mammoths in Siberia, the islands of the arctic ocean loaded with flood
>>>debris, the cattle still frozen to this day in a Tibetan river as they
>>>attempted to swim across it in the remote past...you all know the
>>>
>>>
>stories.
>
>
>>>Velikovsky was where I first read about all of this.
>>>
>>>Was Velikovsky good or bad? He was, after all, a heliocentrist. Indeed,
>>>
>>>
>he
>
>
>>>claimed that the earth had sometime in its past "flipped over", possibly
>>>even turning into a drunk sailor with the Venuvian encounters. But
>>>
>>>
>though
>
>
>>>he didn't hold to the Bible he equally disavowed convential sciences. So
>>>the thing about Velikovsky one can indisputedly say was that he was a
>>>fence-sitter. He made no friends on either side while doing a fabulous
>>>
>>>
>job
>
>
>>>of raising the ire of all who despised, as Velikovsky (self-praising
>>>
>>>
>himself
>
>
>>>in 'Worlds In Collision') described as his "turning a page in the book of
>>>knowledge".
>>>
>>>Having been in this geocentric argument now for three years, I can
>>>understand both the indifference of the Christians and the intolerance of
>>>the scientists. Velikovsky was a genius. But geniuses aren't patronized
>>>
>>>
>in
>
>
>>>either world, especially ones who are a little cantankerous.
>>>
>>>Was Velikovsky good or bad then? On balance, very good, I say.
>>>
>>>Sincerely,
>>>
>>>Gary Shelton
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Carl Felland" <cfelland@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>To: <geocentrism@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 2:48 PM
>>>Subject: [geocentrism] Ancient calendars
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Neville, Steven, and group,
>>>>By way of introduction, I am trained as an Entomologist (Ph.D.
>>>>Mississippi State University, 1989) and was employed by Pennsylvania
>>>>State University for ten years before opting for a more Biblical
>>>>lifestyle in Arkansas. I have espoused most of the viewpoints of
>>>>Institute of Creation Research through graduate school and beyond. I
>>>>feel that my contribution to creation understanding is a demonstration
>>>>that the Hebrew alphabet is formed around the words 'Israel' and 'Zion.'
>>>>'Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal' rejected the paper, but I have
>>>>put it online (http://yahuah.org/IZCentral.html).
>>>>
>>>>My family and I began to observe a solar/lunar "Creation calendar" (Gen.
>>>>1: 14) about a year ago in which the 6 working days, weekly Sabbaths,
>>>>and New Moon Days are mutually exclusive (Eze. 46: 1, 3). Through
>>>>others who are observing this calendar I was introduced to the geostatic
>>>>world view. I have perused your web site, look forward to your new CD,
>>>>and have been following the discussions on this list.
>>>>
>>>>I recently read Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision and noted his ancient
>>>>calendar study pointing to a 360 day year in the past. This, plus the
>>>>prophetic 360 day year of the Scriptures, leads me to wonder if the
>>>>current length of the year is different from that at creation or whether
>>>>the 360 day calendar is based on something else. Velikovsky argued that
>>>>the Plagues and Joshua's long day were a result of brushes with comets
>>>>and that the hail that fell in both was likely meteors. He argued that
>>>>it was the earth's rotation that was altered. Does the geostatic
>>>>position allow for "natural" explanations for the cataclysmic events in
>>>>earth history? Does the geostatic position allow for a change in the
>>>>length of the solar year?
>>>>
>>>>C. M. Felland
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
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